Oh, I definitely agree with that…and it would help increase SPEED. Which I think is very key. Recognizing these things we know and pushing the speed a bit more and more I think can also have a knock on effect in listening comprehension (recognition and understanding faster). I don’t have any studies personally–at least I don’t think that refer to this in any way.
@ericb100 As a side mention, with regard to intensive reading as a means to learn vocabulary, I’d say you also want to throw in there also learning the verb conjugations and most important prefixes/suffixes. Then you can really just learn the word family and transform them into their various forms, instead of having to learn every lemma separately.
Oh, I most definitely do this already. I tend to just let it happen though…i.e. I don’t stop at every verb (even the new ones) and then look up all the conjugations and/or potential prefixes and suffixes. That would be too disruptive most of the time, especially for as little time as I can put into language learning. I do occasionally check out the conjugations for words that it may not be clear to me what the conjugation might be…especially with written work that is mostly in the “simple past” (in German)…where the spelling is often changed, but where in spoken German people mostly use the perfect for speaking in past.
I have also thought about going through some of the more common verbs that also take prefixes and really solidifying those meanings…but will likely do that outside of my normal “reading”…
TBF, most of the internet polyglots are selling something, or at the very least running a money-making YouTube channel. Nothing wrong with that BTW, as long as they’re offering something helpful. It’s not easy make money from telling people to just listen and read on a MASSIVE scale. Steve has managed it, but I think it’s more a passion for him than a business, or at least that’s how it started.
The point that Steve Kaufmann does more than his philosophy suggests is important and interesting. Honestly I’ve never understood the appeal of these “learn to do X the way children do” claims. I think adults sometimes fantasize about how “easy” it was because they simply don’t remember the process. Kids are still making linguistic mistakes at ten years old, and toddlers are notorious for getting frustrated when they can’t figure out what to do or say. I think we underestimate how gritty, determined, and persistent children are in their learning.
For me the most interesting point @asad100101 makes is that he has listened to 4000+ hours and he is starting to get the low effort comprehension of his target language at all registers of the language in his environment. I’m at 535 hours of listening and I do have the vague suspicion that even though I could pass the passive component of a C1 I have still underestimated the quantity of listening required to get to the point where Italian hits my ears as intrinsically meaningful in roughly the same way as my native language. I’ve seen 2000 hours of listening thrown around as a heuristic and I’m curious to see where I am once I get in that zone. The one mistake I made last year is, I think, not listening more.
And as far as the OP goes. @jt23 I think you are right to reject a “pure input” approach, but be careful not to change your methods too often. Language learning is such a long-term project that you need to work in a reasonably consistent way for a reasonable period of time before you can judge the efficacy of what you are doing. This is just me, but I’d stick with a methodology for 3-6 months before I assess whether I need to make adjustments. That’s my two cents.
In the cases of upper intermediates and advanced, I think it’s very much important to keep in the mind to continously move up in difficulty of listening comprehension, as I was mentioning in the thread.
I think it’s very easy to just stay at the same level without noticing and therefore plateau. It’s so common that there’s even a name of it, right? For Italian, maybe if you are truly talking native-like, then perhaps you are looking at such a number. But turning listening into meaning with minimal effort, then I think you can get can there before 4,000 hours, if you focus on increasing the diffulty.
I agree. I’m definitely in camp of: “smart, hard work” is more efficient than “random, feel good” work; I think your “ladder of difficulty” is onto to something, so I’m working up it myself. For example, already about 5 hours of study material on a more difficult telenovella I can see that I can reduce my listens from 3X to 2X per hour, and the first listen is going much better.
That said I don’t know how many case studies we have of people doing “smart, hard work” up to the point of some standardized achievement level. That’s why I like following your progress. We have the same native language and same target language, and we are both using some sort of deliberate practice routine. So in a year or so we should have some idea, at least approximate, of how much listening work is required.
but if you’ve been simply reading and not looking up words, I suggest you try using Lingq, readlang, google translate browser plugin…whatever it takes to quickly look up words and or phrases…
Yes, I’m using LingQ and Google Translate. I’m at over 12,000 known words. I consider LingQ a godsend.
I super admire all past polyglots who got the job done without such aids.
However, I’m not a Comprehensible+1 guy. I went big on Comprehensible+n early on because I found +1 boring. It was work, but now just about everything on my read list is in the 10-25% unknown words category.
Most of my approach is still Comp Input. I’m just adding more listening/repeating/shadowing to each sentence plus more systematic study of grammar. I’m also trying to write a paragraph or two every day.
And If LinqQ ever gets its French tutor booking bug fixed, I’ll be conversing more with a native speaker.
Though I wonder if Steve Kaufmann’s point is that “going slow and enjoying it” will get you there eventually, while “smart, hard work” might burn you out and not get you there at all.
I’ve always felt when he’s made this sort of a statement that it was offering some bit of consolation or encouragement…So many people have the mistaken notion that they can learn a language WAAAAAY faster that is possible. I believe many (maybe all) of us have gone through some disappointments along the way, thinking we should be much further along. Some folks quit. Some folks recognnize they were wrong and continue forth (hopefully enjoying the process, or learning to enjoy the process). I think the enjoyment comes when you throw out the preconceived notions of how quickly you should learn the language and realize that it is a long process that can’t be rushed.
At the beginning I enjoyed my delusion that French would come fast. But I’m a realist. When my dreams don’t match reality, I adjust.
Learning a language involves a great deal of rather menial intellectual work. It’s not spend a week getting the concept, then working a problem set, then moving on.
I am quite surprised how hard it is to hear French properly. I am getting better, an inch at a time, but it’s not a matter of “oh, that’s my problem” and fixing it in a week or two.
What keeps me going is I love the language and the culture. I’m always listening to French music, then getting charged back up to learn.
After spending way too much time having my questions fully answered by LingQ staff, I finally joined. I use it in addition to what I have struggled with in getting or hiring people to do and that is Storytelling and Describing in detail pictures in materials such as magazines.
I had made the mistake to have them read the text of children’s books. After being told, I now just have them use the pictures and tell the story they see only using the pictures.
I’ve managed the balance by reading nearly 2 million Greek words and not opening grammar books. Every 100,000 words I can notice an improvement. It’s better than my old, traditional methods. I believe CI works, but I can definitely see progress and am more willing to put in considerable time to it.
I’m very much focused on Greek text, English translations and Greek audio. I’ll do a lot more of that and then may speak more. This CI reading helps me hear, understand and know how to speak, slowly coming in that order.
I want to “see” the language more before I try to speak again. Speaking can clarify some things, but can be come rearranging what I know. I want to uncover the parts I don’t understand.
I see CI as a very large part of my language learning and exclusive until much later. Some people might have a different mix. Finishing off my learning with grammar and speaking does not I think negate or undermine the CI approach; I don’t think it is generally said to be supposed to be 100% on your whole journey. It’s moving me faster and more reliably than I believe grammar, intensive reading, translation, spaced repetition or speaking would.
For me CI helps me most. I’m patient with it. If I wasn’t patient but did it, it might still work. If I’m not patient and did something else, I’d harm my progress. Be very careful how you equate patience and progress.
Interesting texts in Greek are not easy and my unknown words can be 20%+ often. Not ideal but texts are limited.
I started CI in Greek with about 2000 from the Mondly app. I’ve read 2m words and very loosely know 12000 words (generous). The language has gone from a dense fog to more accessible now. I’m hoping at 3m words I’ll be conversational and at 4m I’ll be pretty damn good. Either way, that’s about 4 years at 30 minutes/ 3000 words a day. Double time per day might get me there faster but I am not looking to change my approach until I can engage more clearly. French seems far easier but I had more formal teaching in that so it’s an unfair comparison.
I’m not clear your expectations are reasonable (maybe for your target language) and you seem to be putting the blame on the approach.
I’m not telling you how to learn, just passing on my experience.
French is for me very hard to hear, I think it’s because the sounds are so different from English and they have enchaînement and a lot of homophony. For me it feels like a fog is slowly lifting, presumably because my brain is learning how to recognise words in speech. Reading while listening is training my brain to pattern match.
I’m not convinced I can guess grammar. In French grammar does seem to reveal itself, not so in German. Maybe I just need more CI. The problem is that I can’t hear the case endings, so it could be den or dem, meinen or meinem. Maybe that comes with time. German is the first language with cases that I’ve learnt, so I have no idea how my brain will handle it. I think because I know French, Spanish would be easy.
I think most people underestimate how long it takes to learn a language. The FSI gives 650 hours for French, but I think if you want to understand films, understand nuance and express yourself well on many subjects, it takes thousands of hours. Some polyglots only talk about easy things, so they look fluent, but ask them about furniture making, paintings, decorating, gardening, ice hockey etc, and they will be stuck.
I wonder if there aren’t some things you will learn faster by studying the grammar or drilling specifically on. I don’t mean that you couldn’t learn them from input-only. Just that it’s more efficient to study around them specifically.
For example, in Spanish there are some verbs that are just basic building blocks and you’ll see them in half the sentences. Ir (go), hacer (make), tener (take) and so on. Does it not make some sense to drill on them to have all conjugations memorized and effortlessly available?
The alternative seems to be that you’d gradually reach the same confidence level after reading thousands and thousands of words. And during that input-only training you’d struggle more than needed over commonplace words.
It seems like an ROI mechanism should be used to find the right balance. I’d be surprised if input-only is truly optimal.
I’m not sure the common verbs are half your sentences: wonder, seem. Or rather they combine with other words; will struggle.
I like CI reading to help me read. It reinforces itself in the important areas. Grammar isn’t the first part of what I need; recognition and understanding is.
I’m not sure the common verbs are half your sentences:
Yeah, maybe the common verbs I’m thinking about aren’t so prevalent, and that’s an exaggeration. But there’s going to be some verbs that are in maybe 25% of Spanish sentences on average. (I say it with some confidence after doing a quick-and-dirty check with a sample article.)
I like CI reading to help me read.
You remind me that finding an enjoyable way to learn is often more important than finding the optimal. We don’t have infinite willpower to do everything the hardest way every day, after all.