Pay or not to pay?

This thread has gone on for ever. If we get back to the first post we will see that Irene was asking about how we could encourage more people to become paying members.

Irene is one or our most active and constructive members, as a learner and as a creator of great content for learning German. She is obviously concerned that without enough paying members a site like LingQ cannot survive. She also recognizes the effort that we have put into creating this resource, that most people use either free or at relatively little cost.

My answer is the following. We have to first increase the total number of people using the site. If we continue to improve the functions and benefits of the site, the site will spread by word of mouth. You will be seeing a number of new features over the next few months. As a part of this process, we will be increasing the difference in benefits between free and paying membership.

On a philosophical level, I see no problem with using free services on the web, and many such services and programs are excellent. I recognize that competition from free sites is a fact of life on the Internet.

Where I have a problem is the position that services that are free are somehow morally superior to services that charge a fee, or that on the Internet everything should be free. This is, to me, nonsense. Most sites based on donations hardly earn anything unless they have millions of visitors. The sad fact is that most people, if they have the opportunity to take something and not pay for it, will do so, and in some cases even feel that it is their right to do so!

Every product and service has a source of income to cover its costs, or at least the hope that it will acquire enough income to cover its costs and make money some day. The source of income might be advertizing, or special up-graded services, or the tax payer, or a sponsor or funding sourceā€¦ We live in a money economy where people exchange their services and expertise for money.

This money economy coexists with a voluntary sector. Once people have covered their basic needs with a source of income, they volunteer their help and expertise in many ways, in their own community, with friends and family and even on the internet. At LingQ we rely on our volunteers for content and in many other ways. The two impulses, the desire to earn a living, and the desire to help others, are not mutually exclusive.

I have no problem with people using the services of LingQ free of charge. It is up to us to convince more people of the benefit of paying for the services that we provide.

What I do find annoying is Pierre. His contribution to the community consists mostly of repeated posts denigrating the value LingQ, which he does not even use, We recently canceled the account of the crazy spammer girl who posted on everyoneā€™s wall. At what point do I consider Pierre a spammer?

Jeff

The best way is to make your own alternative.

You make a collection of audio with their associated written files. Podcasts with pdf or html or any written documents. If possible recordings of radio and tv. If not possible you could try to team with someone who can record tv in your target language and make mp3 for you in exchange for the same service to his target your native if not possible - Be happy with what you already have and forget tv until you have the sat. If you team the best would be to make a team of more than 2. The only reason I like tv and movies is to listen to more voices.

Advantage of the team you can exchange links get advice from the native about the quality and difficulty of languages etc

Dictionaries are available online or offline - bilingual or monolingual.

In stead of lingq the words and phrases - interlex - anki - if you are afraid to use free software because of virus or spyware put them on alternative computer - I run interlex on an old Toshiba with 4 giga hard disk and 128 mega ram - I purchase this second hand laptop 7 year ago for 300 euros - now the price should be a lot lower.

About the sites I saw for free or lower price than lingq - since I have now my own alternative I did not work deep to verify their quality. Some of them look in deep sleep. Some I know are not of the best quality. But you can still get something even from the worst one. Most of them like lingq have a way to communicate with other people and try to make friends learning the same way you do or reversal and build your team. Of course you never know who you will get in a team and how long will your collegues be motivated. To build a good team is as difficult as getting good friends - but not impossible.

I trying to make a team in french spanish - my goal is to make audio from text or text from audio that do not have audio yet.

I will look into my history to put some links

About the word counter I do not see any interest to it. With interlex you have a stat that tell you the number of entries - and the number you answered right. Only stupid people will admire you thanks to the number of words you know. You should admire yourselve for what you are able to understand in listening or reading or what you are able to make understand by others. If you have interest in the number of words you should add one new language : toki pona (some kind of esperanto) with only 120 words.

http://albis.vetsin.com
to learn vocabulary for free (to be tested)

vocabulary learning only french to and from spanish german english
looks very basic to me (to be tested)

http://www.provalingua.com
An alternative to interlex and probably more to anki (to be tested)

For sure you will get something here - I do not think it is enough to learn a language but as I said you have to take something everywhere.

http://www.wordchamp.com
Looks great claim to be for free but (to be tested)

http://www.foreignlanguageflashcards.com
On this I download some pdf of flashcards I do not know if I will ever use it - one thing that could interest anki users is a full of pics make some kind of visual dictionary.

http://www.wikibooks.org
I am suspecting this one is for readings

http://www.etandem.com
Give me a partner in spanish in 2 days of course you need chance to get the good one

BBC and Open University both have free stuff but not a full package I think but who is full in language we will learn forever - I still open my french dictionary to look for a word in my native french.

I agree with what Steve says. More members is a good thing to strive for. Hopefully members are willing to study several days per week (to really reap the benefits), and explore how LingQ differs from other methods/communities out there (for good and bad). Maybe some of them will upgrade.

Pierre, my question was rhetorical, but Iā€™ll comment on your answer anyway. I know that the web is full of texts and audio, from podcasts and news to complete audiobooks (even legal onesā€¦). Itā€™s not a problem for me to import any of this for later study. What you seem to be missing, though, (which, for what itā€™s worth, isnā€™t that important since everybody have their own preferred way of studying), is that the number of new words in each lesson is based on what you have already learned - here at LingQ, that is. I can copy thousands of words from newspapers/movies/books/etc into Anki - but when I pick up the next article I donā€™t really have a clue if itā€™s going to be way over my head. This ā€œnew wordsā€ feature is really my main personal reason for staying here, and paying (since Iā€™ve saved quite many a linkā€¦).

Why I keep copying the Chinese vocabulary to Anki is because I like the ā€œproperā€ SRS tool better,. However, it still doesnā€™t give me a hint if the article Iā€™m about to open will be a breeze, or difficult as hell.

ā€œOnly stupid people will admire you thanks to the number of words you know.ā€

Well, I didnā€™t say I was going to print a t-shirt with my current statsā€¦

As for team building, itā€™s important, inspiring and encouraging. However, many ā€œcommunityā€ based language learning sites have a high drop-out rate (at least itā€™s my experience).

I avoid pre-made flashcard decks like the plague, but thatā€™s probably just me.

Steve I would consider a better ethic if in stead of points you consider a system where people who import for the community or tutor with value would be paid in money and you could take your tax on each transactions

Or if in stead of purchasing service we purchase share of your business and get some dividends if the site make profit because - every participants is a part of the site success - no need to create a company and to be listed - you could create you own system

But still remain a big problem - I think the best way is to have a lot of ressources from a lot of origines and as a businessman you need to promote your site when people not doing it for money could more easily promote a lot of other ressources than their ownā€¦

Jeff

hahahahaha the t-shirt hahahaha

I understand your point about knowing new words. But if you do not read a text because all the words are already lingq that is not a good idea I think.

You will know the words better if you read the words many times in many texts.

The list of links is not limited to the one I give.

Steve one other problem with paying is that people who pay will have a tendency to stay on the site where they pay when I repeat the best is to have a large amount of origines for learning.

ā€œAbout the word counter I do not see any interest to it.ā€

First of all, I like math, Iā€™ve been playing with number for a long while. So when I get some kind of stimulus it goes far better with a number. Itā€™s just my personal opinion.

But what I really think itā€™s important is the number of unknown words that are in a text. Using this tool I can classify the content according to difficulty. I

This is particularly useful to me because Iā€™m very lazy to deal with a content with a lot of unknown words and I prefer more easy content where I can guess (and even get right) the meaning of the word. But I think that it is helpful to everybody.

Itā€™s not that I choose texts where all the words are known - quite the contrary. But Iā€™d rather read a text with 25% unknown words than 80%, and thatā€™s a piece of information I canā€™t get anywhere else.

I will deal with some of the points raised by Pierre, for the benefit of other members who are following this thread, and who, unlike Pierre, are interested in the development of LingQ.

  1. All tutors can choose to be paid in points or in cash. LingQ takes a margin of 25% between what the user pays and what the tutor earns. In the future LingQ will probably stop taking any margin when points are retained for use on the site. In that case LingQ would only take a margin if the points are converted into cash. These changes are on our list. I do not know when this will put in place. We will be taking a number of steps to make it easier and more attractive for members to tutor each other. At the same time we will continue to rely on, and greatly value, those tutors who are motivated to help out with tutoring and prefer to be compensated with money.
  2. We do not charge for content,and for now have no intention of doing so. Therefore we do not pay money for content and have no intention of doing so. We can feature samples of content for sale, and link to sites where more of the same can be purchased. We compensate providers of free content with points from the pool of points which have expired.
  3. We have chosen to finance the development of LingQ ourselves. If we were interested in getting outside financing there are a number of options available, but having members as shareholders would not be my first choice. To offer shares to members raises a whole range of issues including the price to put on shares, dealing with shareholders, some of whom might be as annoying as Pierre (although I doubt Pierre would buy in) and managing the sale or transfer of these shares as members come and go. Like much of what Pierre has to say, it is just impractical.

Jeff

"Well, I didnā€™t say I was going to print a t-shirt with my current statsā€¦ "

lol

Actually, we strongly believe that the number of words you know is the best indicator of your ability in that language. Therefore, a t-shirt with a high number of Known Words on it would be a thing worth printing and wearing! :wink: This would also show that you had spent your available language learning time constructively learning words as opposed to spending countless hours scouring the internet, cutting and pasting into spreadsheets, building networks and visiting used computer stores looking for ways to avoid having to pay $10 a month to LingQ.

Pierre,

there are some comments that you made that make me think you donā€™t know enough about how LingQ works.

It sounds like somebody told you about LingQ and youā€™re wondering to what serves each tool.

Just an example:
Sometime ago you said that Steve should not charge for material that he got for free. And I couldnā€™t understand it because the access to the Library is free.

Another example could be your recent discussion with Jeff about whatā€™s the benefit of the number of known words. This utility has seemed obvious to me since I got at LingQ.

Maybe Iā€™m wrong. Itā€™s just the feeling that I have.

Iā€™m relatively new here and recently became a paying member, and Iā€™d just like to say that Iā€™m happy to pay for the service. I found it to be an interesting and unique approach to language learning that resonates strongly with me, and that the site provides useful features that are beyond the scope of what Iā€™m willing or able to put together myself. I donā€™t want to spend all my time wrangling flashcards. I like having individual pieces of content in both written and audio form. I like that thereā€™s a variety of content and I can get some idea of its difficulty level before I dive into it. I like seeing unfamiliar words Iā€™ve encountered before highlighted in a new piece of content. I havenā€™t yet taken advantage of things like tutoring, but I do not find the cost of points objectionable or exorbitant.

Well, I for one would like a t-shirt with my LingQ stats on! It would be a good joke, and one that only fellow LingQers would get!

@ LingQuser

ā€œthere are some comments that you made that make me think you donā€™t know enough about how LingQ worksā€

I agree totally. I plan to wait until I see evidence to the contrary before I respond to Pierreā€™s remarks again.

Well for active lingqers our I suppose our shirts would be out of date after a day.

Funny how my post inspired you. :slight_smile:

For active lingqers, a work-around like this could be used:

ā€œKnow words in German: 25 059 - and still counting. ;)ā€

Iā€™d also like a t-shirt showing the number of errors in written submissions.

I have just achieved one error every 4 words in a Russian piece of writing. Iā€™d like to see if anyone can beat that :wink:

If you make 4 mistakes in a word ā€œbreadā€, you will receive a word ā€œbeerā€ :)) (In Russian it is ā€œŠ•ŃŠ»Šø сŠ“ŠµŠ»Š°Ń‚ŃŒ 4 Š¾ŃˆŠøŠ±ŠŗŠø Š² сŠ»Š¾Š²Šµ <хŠ»ŠµŠ±>, тŠ¾ ŠæŠ¾Š»ŃƒŃ‡Šøтся <ŠæŠøŠ²Š¾>ā€)

Hello
Iā€™m not sure is this right topic to ask, but some people here mentioned Deutsche Welle course ā€œDeutsch warum nichtā€. Iā€™m studying it right now. I want to know if content of this course can be imported here in LinqQ? Maybe someone already did this?