When we are young our parents teach us that lying is wrong and that we should always tell the truth, no matter what; “The more you lie”, they tell us, “the more people won’t believe you when you actually tell the truth”. But as we grow up, we realise that is not always the case, we realise it is sometimes easier to tell a little lie than face the consequences of telling an inconvenient truth.
Let’s think about all the times we lied; were they just little white lies, like telling our friends how nice they looked and how clever they were, when we didn’t think so? Or were they big lies? When we tell a white lie we do it to prevent our friends’ feelings from getting hurt, in other cases we do it because we don’t want to lose face or we do it to get away with something wrong we have done or to get improper privileges.
And when our friends lie to us? Would we rather have the bitter truth told to our face or hear a sweeter version of reality and maybe find out what they really think later?
Telling lies has its risks: once we’ve told a lie we must keep it up and sometimes this translates into telling other lies; moreover, the truth will sooner or later come out and we may lose our friends’ trust.
According to Judeo-Christian tradition, it isn’t the telling of an untruth which is wrong per se, rather it is “being a false witness” (or words to that effect.)
Put another way: it is wrong to say something which is untrue if the aim or result thereof is to damage or disadvantage another person, or to create/sustain an unjust or unfair situation.
However, if your aim is to protect someone from evil or unfairness, etc, then you can (according to the Judeo-Christian world view) tell just as many lies as you need, without in any way damaging your ethics.
Example:
Let’s imagine we were alive during the Third Reich, and knew that a neighbour was hiding some Jews in his house to protect them from persecution. One day a Gestapo guy comes and asks us whether we happen to know of anyone who is hiding Jews. It would be fine to answer THAT question with a pack of lies, because our motive for lying would be to protect someone from harm, not to cause injustice.
Well, first of all I believe we should think over what is “truth” and what is not. Because in my personal opinion the word “truth” is an abstract noun. When we tell to our friends that they look nice not actually thinking so, I don’t think we lie to them, we tell the truth, it’s just that it’s not our truth:)) I mean, for sure, there will be some people who consider them nice in that certain look,and I believe, most of them themselves consider themselves nice since they decided to turn and ask your opinion, so basically, it’s their truth also.
What concerns the example with Jews. Again, it’s all about your personal truth. Rank, here you mentioned that it’s good to lie to save someone’s life, but a native fascist patriot might not agree with you for his truth (as well as the truth of Hitler) would be “Jews are bad for our society”. So basically, “truth” is what you consider correct, and true.
What about hiding truth to protect others’ feelings or not to appear in bad light, I truly believe that these are only excuses for cowards. I myself never lie to people who are dear to me. Because of that I suffered a lot, lost my job, lost my house, lost my baby…but the truth is your strength against others…And eventually I regained everything , plus respect and admiration:)) The ability to declare the truth in high voice gives you the advantage of keeping your head and eyes up in front of everybody.
@secretuser1: “…What concerns the example with Jews. Again, it’s all about your personal truth. Rank, here you mentioned that it’s good to lie to save someone’s life, but a native fascist patriot might not agree with you for his truth (as well as the truth of Hitler) would be “Jews are bad for our society”…”
Well yes.
I was talking about the Judeo-Christian world view. Nazis have their own (rather different) world view, of course…
I tend to believe the truth should always be told. Of course each of us has his/her own truth, but that truth must be spoken out. The sin of lying is not so much not telling the truth in itself, as keeping the other person in ignorance, depriving them of their liberty and power to act according to the demands of reality. Not telling the truth is a lack of respect and an act of cowardice and must never be forgiven!
@Rank I think you will find wildly divergent opinions on lying within the Judeo-Christian worldview (and within the Nazi worldview for that matter).
@secretuser1 Good points. I applaud your resolve and am happy to hear it worked out well in the end. I’m not sure how serious you were with it, but I find your example of how a particular bit of clothing looks on someone a tad weasely 
I think that the closer the person is to you and the more likely it is to affect the situation, the more important it is to speak the truth as you see it. More and more I respect people who actually give their opinion when asked. If you care about someone, tell them the truth (your truth) and if they don’t appreciate the honesty, oh well, maybe they’re not so great after all (or if your truth was nasty…maybe you’re not that great).
Lying to avoid facing up to something you’ve done, that’s reprehensible. My feeling is, act in a way you can stand behind. Lying to a hostile stranger to avoid wanton violence on the other hand, that can be a good thing. I don’t think it’s an either or question and I don’t think it should be presented to children as such. A child lying to a parent, well that’s almost always bad. But even that has exceptions (if the parent is abusive, irresponsible, etc).
I would agree that there is generally a great diversity of opinion within the Judeo-Christian world. In a sense this is perhaps stating the obvious. Nevertheless it is incorrect, in my opinion, to say that there are “wildly divergent opinions on lying”. I think this issue is pretty fundamental for most people who call themselves either Jewish or Christian. I don’t think there are huge differences on this.
As regards Nazis, I don’t quite see your point.
Are you saying that some Nazis would lie to other Nazis to protect Jews??
(It seems to me that, if a person did this, he/she would by definition NOT be a “Nazi”…)
@Rank well, among a single denomination of Christians I have heard, “Lying is always wrong,” and “Lying isn’t the thing that’s wrong.” That is basically the entire spectrum right there. Nazi’s are people with their own morals as well. Some may think lying in particular cases is okay, some may think lying is wrong, full stop. A particular opinion on lying isn’t fundamental to Nazism.
Edit: And so my point is, bringing Judeo-Christian or Nazi worldviews into the conversation seems like a red herring.
@kcb: “…well, among a single denomination of Christians I have heard, “Lying is always wrong,” and “Lying isn’t the thing that’s wrong.” That is basically the entire spectrum right there”
Well, I have no idea who these Christians are, kcb. Maybe they are the kind who freely make up their own rules as they go along - as opposed to having an ethical code based on an interpretation of Jewish-Christian scriptures…?
The same point that I made about “Nazis” applies to “Christians” too - you judge them by their actions.
If an apparent Nazi lies to protect Jews, he is not in reality a Nazi.
If an apparent Christian is ready to lie about anything and everything, and to cause injustice thereby, then he is not in reality a Christian.
@Rank I was afraid of this. You want to only count people who adhere to some particular standard to be called Christian or Jew. In my opinion, virtually any ethics can be derived through scripture while holding a ‘Judeo-Christian worldview’ and not just the values you think can be represented. You may ascribe to a particular interpretation, while other Christians/Jews/whatever ascribe to something contrary, all while citing the same scriptures.
Why are we talking so much about Nazis? A Nazi may do something against the overall goal of Nazism, while still being a Nazi…I don’t understand this need to have such rigid boundaries on everything.
I find the notion that a true and fully paid-up Nazi would ever lie to protect a Jew (or anyone) very bizarre indeed, kcb. Equally bizarre for me is the notion that a true Christian could have “virtually any ethics”.
But I really have no wish to argue about this. You make some good points, and I hear what you say.
UPDATE:
(By “anyone”, I mean any other non-Nazi.)
The average person tells four lies every day
I’ll just add that Mr Schindler was a member of the Nazi party and is also a khasidey umot ha’olam. Being a Nazi, is to have been a part of a particular political party. Despite popular opinion, being a Nazi has nothing to do with one’s ethical and moral views and actions. Surely, there are people within any group who are just horrible people and some groups have a basis in violence and ignorance. Christian Nazis existed too. Uncomfortable for Christians, but true.
To say that person does not belong to X group because they do not follow the principles/have all the correct beliefs/ carry out all the right actions of said group, is black and white thinking when we are talking about groups which one may be a member of. The Nazi party was membership based. Laws were created which would restrict non-party members. It’s difficult to say that a person is no longer a member when they identify as such. This is a problem which religions face. Since there isn’t a whole lot of ‘official membership,’ it’s harder to say ‘Oh, we’ve kicked him out of the party’. I know that religions still include in their figures people who are only a part of them by name only. I know a guy who hasn’t had a religious Catholic in his family for 3 generations but still calls himself one. What if a person like that were to commit some terrible deed? Would that be counted as a Catholic or not? Since he puts it on his census every time, and the policy and funding is catered towards that, that’s a difficult thing to answer.
‘Truth’…aaah, such a meaningless word. Slightly less meaningful than ‘God’. It’s funny how we turn words which are supposed to indicate and promote some sense of mutual cooperation and loving-kindness into words of division and hatred.
This is a topic which could be discussed for centuries. And, surely, it’s worth the debate too.
Should we ever lie? No. Must we sometimes lie? Yes. The degree to which we must lie, depends on the circumstances in which we find ourselves or have been placed in.
@Imyirtseshem: “…I’ll just add that Mr Schindler was a member of the Nazi party and is also a khasidey umot ha’olam. Being a Nazi, is to have been a part of a particular political party. Despite popular opinion, being a Nazi has nothing to do with one’s ethical and moral views and actions. Surely, there are people within any group who are just horrible people and some groups have a basis in violence and ignorance. Christian Nazis existed too. Uncomfortable for Christians, but true.”
This is so mixed up that it’s almost painful to read.
Let’s just be clear: In my earlier posts I was not talking about the badge or uniform a person wears, or the ‘official’ membership of a group. I was talking about whether a person’s actual behaviour and beliefs would justify the description. This is what I am referring to here.
It’s really not that complicated is it?
If a particular person is secretly an Atheist who likes to get drunk on vodka, then there is no sense in which that person could accurately be considered to be a Muslim - even if he goes to the Mosque every Friday where he pretends to pray.
And likewise, if a person is a racist hater who persecutes or murders people, then he or she cannot accurately be considered a Christian. The person could have been baptised a thousand times, and could go to Church every single day - it makes no difference. Being an active and enthusiastic Nazi is simply not compatible with being a Christian, because it goes against virtually every Christian doctrine in the book!
NB: I am not by any means defining people in a narrow way here. I know very well that there is a diversity of opinion among Jews and Christians (and other religions, of course.) But there are some fundamental boundaries too!
UPDATE:
I haved edited my second parapgraph to improve the clarity of what I was saying.
@Rank I know it’s off topic, but I think it’s slightly disingenuous to say “if a person is a racist hater who persecutes or murders people, then he or she cannot accurately be considered a Christian” when the Bible itself authourises killings on many occasions.
As far as I’m concerned, if someone claims to be of a particular faith, they’re of that faith, even if they do things that the people of that faith would usually disagree with. Hitler said on many occasions that he was doing the Lord’s (referring to the god of the Bible and to Jesus) work in attempting to wipe out the Jews. Likewise, during the Crusades, many faiths got together to kill each other specifically because of the religion of the other. Were the Christian crusaders not Christian because of the killings? Of course they were.
To be clear though, I wouldn’t blame Christianity for the mass murder that Hitler performed, just that those actions don’t stop him being a Christian.
Regarding the topic itself, I think lying is okay on some occasions and like you, Rank, I would agree with the “bearing false witness”. Lying to protect people is an important thing to do, especially in the example of the Jews in hiding during World War II.
@Lyise
Sorry, but I’m going to quit this right now - arguing about politics or religion on the internet is never a good idea, methinks! :-0
(For the record: I flatly reject the assertion that any Jewish or Christian scripture would condone racist murders by Nazis.)
@Rank I don’t mean to cause offense, I wasn’t going to join the topic until the claim if someone is a racist or a murderer they cannot be Christian. For the record, though, there are numerous quotes from Christian and Jewish scripture that could easily be used to condone racism and murder (not just Christian and Jewish, of course, many religions have passages like this). To pick two examples, there’s Luke 19:27, Jesus himself says “…But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me”, and Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.”.
No, let’s not ‘be clear’. That’s a way of saying ‘my view is X and you should agree with it’.
It’s not about something being complicated or not. Ideas and facts can be either. The point is that they should be credible and lacking fallacies.
If somebody was a member of the Nazi Party: that person was a Nazi. There’s nothing complex or controversial about that. As we have seen, being a member of that political party, has nothing to do with one’s moral and/or ethical leaning. There are many examples can be found throughout history.
I’m a Jewish guy (who lost family in the shoah) who can sit here and say that were Nazis which I’d consider to be good people. That takes a bit of reflection, going beyond knee-jerk reactions, educating oneself outside of what one wants to believe and some humility. Try it.
With religions, I think that the situation is a little more complicated. One thing is that there are a wide range of beliefs. Many Christians in ancient times did not believe in any sort of divinity of Jesus, nor the virgin birth, among many other core concept. If you know a thing or two about the development of the ‘Christian religion’, you’ll see how diverse it is. A little knowledge on church history and the development of philosophical traditions within Christianity would be enlightening for you. There was a point in history where Christianity was not so meek and humble, and it was seen as a Christian duty to take up arms and to burn those at the stake who did not share the beliefs of the popular religion. Slavery was also justified by the bible - how many modern Christians would be ok with that? I’m rather thankful that this has almost completely changed. I’m also glad that the Westboro bunch doesn’t have any power. Funny, they consider themselves to be the only true Christians…
Hashem tsu dankn that things have changed in that regard. There are a few religions which have some work to go in that regard, of course.
With respect intended, Rank, you’ve still got a lot to learn. As we all do. 
@Imyirtseshem: “…With respect intended, Rank, you’ve still got a lot to learn. As we all do. :)”
Well if nothing else, this is certainly something we can both agree about. 
Since I’m a muslim so I follow islamic teachings as much as I can. However, following religious(insert any religion) teachings to the letter is very hard for a mere mortal like us. There was a quranic verse in which it was clearly stated that “one could lie if that lie is supposed to do more good than harm. For example, if you think your lie can save one’s life, one’s relationship, one’s fight among two groups, than your lie has a good purpose to it so it is not a bad thing or a sin to speak a lie.” However, speaking lies for one’s personal gains is never encouraged and sooner or later truth will come out in the open. I do not know what is an equivalent phrase in English but we have a saying or expression in our native language URDU " A lie does not have legs". Just imagine a person without their both legs. A lie is just like that. You just can not rely on it every time, sooner or later you are going to get caught up and might feel shame about it once it comes out in the open. Most of the time I am used to speaking truth sometimes when I try to speak a lie my tongue and facial expression do not go hand in hand. You see, our body has a built in system in order to adapt to good or bad things naturally. We are programmed like that by nature. However, just have a look at politicians from all around the word. “In order to be a good politician, you have got to be a good liar…lol”