@Imyirtseshem,
So, the “grammar troller” is the one called Perolex, right?
I’d say the other one. Perolex is asking a valid question, the troll starts yapping about grammar.
“I’ve got to say that I’ve never used ‘u’, ‘ur’, ‘cuz’, left off a question mark when asking a question and I do know how to spell both ‘through’ and ‘though’.”
Well… the game talk is something different than ordinary forum discussions. You are trying to play the game at the same time, you can’t just stand in a corner and have a grammatically correct discussion and mind your spelling, because if you do, some troll in the game will come and kill you. I’m pretty sure Perolex is fully capable of spelling words like through and though and also thought, but when you write in a hurry letters get dropped off or hop in or switch places.
dooo is saying that according to his experience and knowledge there is nothing to say grammar makes any bigger difference.
He is not saying it’s wrong to study grammar, he isn’t saying it’s bad to study grammar, he is saying it doesn’t matter.
He is not claiming anything, he is stating his opinion on the matter.
(So you are NOT “refuting his claim”, you are trying to prove his OPINION wrong by your subjective BELIEF… Come on.)
He is not saying “Because it hasn’t been proved in a scientific paper, it must be false”, so it’s totally irrelevant whether he sees “the fault” or if there even is a fault in such thinking.
Can you see how you create these brain spooks to fight against, in stead of sincerely trying to hear what dooo is saying?
He bases HIS OPINION on that there is nothing to support the claim that grammar would make any difference - except some people’s very personal, subjective opinion - that it works.
It’s like saying homeopathy works because it worked for me.
It’s like saying astrology works because everything my horoscope says about me is true.
It’s like saying there are ghosts because I’ve seen them, that aliens come and abduct people because I’m sure that happened to me, fairies exist because I’ve seen them, God exists, because the Bible says so…
Which is what dooo means when he says “anecdote doesn’t equal data”. Your personal experience of angels is not evidence of that angels exist. It’s all the evidence YOU need, but nothing to others who don’t share the experience. You cannot expect dooo to say “Even though my own personal experience as a language learner and teacher and linguist doesn’t support the idea, and even though I haven’t found any impartial, neutral and objective data to support the idea, grammar must be helpful in studying languages because “Imyirtseshem” thinks it is”.
“Those people who felt the earth was flat didn’t have any evidence to support saying that it was flat or spherical, for that matter.”
In fact they did. The very same evidence you have. The evidence of their own eyes and other senses. The world seems to be flat. This planet is so huge compared to us that we don’t experience the convexity.
You claim to have “purposefully avoided the use of grammar”, but there is always the possibility that you sabotaged your learning just to prove to yourself that grammar works. There is always the possibility that it works for you, but not for others. There is always the possibility that you tried to avoid grammar but used a method build upon using the grammar - which, naturally, would then not work. Or that you used a proper method, one created around learning the grammar in practice, but used it incorrectly. Then, of course, you would not get as good results. One also much take into consideration, that we all learn best in a way we are used to. Have you tried another method long enough to be sure it doesn’t work? For at least 30 days? How do you test it?
Nevertheless, all this is irrelevant, because it’s still just your own subjective experience. Like with aliens, fairies and angels.
You don’t need to “attempt to hand in a paper” or anything like that, YOU JUST NEED TO ACCEPT THE FACT THAT YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE IS NOT OBJECTIVE DATA.
It’s not worthless, but no-one has said it is, either.
No-one is claiming you are ignorant or stupid, you are just being very egocentric. YOUR experience seems to be the only valid experience to you. You don’t give a dime about dooo’s experience, or the experience of all the people involved in the studies he refers to, and as he mentions he teaches languages, it’s probably his students’ experience you are brushing off as irrelevant compared to YOUR experience. The only other opinion you approve is the one that supports you.
“I’m not discussing the ‘teaching’ of grammar. I’d like to make that very clear.”
You have made that very clear. You are discussing YOUR personal beliefs based on YOUR personal experience, which naturally trumps everything else, especially scientific studies.
You use grammar to get insight into the structure of a language. Other people use something else. My husband has absolute hearing so he gets the insight through listening the language being spoken. Grammar to him is a boulder on his way to the language, not a lever. If he knows the language, he can grasp the grammar too, but not the other way around. Also, one must be able to explain grammar without using all that Latin. The classic school education has indeed spoiled grammar for a lot of people.
Why don’t children need grammar?
We learn the second language the same way we learn the first language, and third and fourth and twentyseventh. (And how do I know this? Because I have done it… )
The only difference is that we have already done it once, so it’s easier.
Don’t believe me? Then think about this:
Children take a very long time before they say their first word, and it’s not just because their larynx, tongue and lips aren’t ready. When they learn to speak they repeat the same words over and over again, try to get it “right”, try to get it sound the same people around him/her sound. A child who has “studied” their FIRST language isn’t very good at the language when they are five. Most adults who have actively studied a second language are pretty good after five years. It takes normally some 15 years for a child to get really good at his/her first language.
Most 15-years-olds hate grammar, even in their mothertongue… or especially then. Again, my husband wrote really good essays, had a great vocabulary, could speak about anything, and never made any grammatical errors, but he flunked all the grammar tests. He’s Danish, he learned English when he was 4 and Swedish when he was 6, and when his teacher tried to get him study grammar and said “it will make it easier for you to study foreign languages” it didn’t make any sense. He was already fluent in three languages without any grammar what so ever! Why would he need it with the next one?
“Grammar is solely used for the purposes of enlightening the mind to structures of another language or refining the knowledge of one’s own”
Enlightening, refining, finishing… When you carve a sculpture, you don’t start with sandpaper. You finish with it.
Looking at the tools doesn’t help you get a better idea of the sculpture.
Studying sandpaper will most certainly not make you skillful in carving, nor does it make the vision of the sculpture any better.
Making the whole sculpture with sandpaper… ouch.
I bet the people who started with looking at other sculptures (listening and looking at the language in action), getting themselves a block of wood (vocabulary, phrases) and taking a chisel and starting to carve boldly (producing the language by speaking and writing, even though at first it happened with a phrasebook and dictionary in hands) get done faster than you with your sandpaper.
Besides, there is always the risk that you get so into sanding that you end up with a formless, smooth lump. You know everything about the grammar but dare not say anything, dare not say a word, dare not open a book, because “you’re not ready”. There’s always one more detail to finish, there’s always one more grammatical rule to learn, there’s one more…
And, oh dear, the fear of MAKING A MISTAKE!! Oh, if I wrote “can u run me thought a dungeon”… I’d be so ASHAMED and WHAT would people THINK of me!
Well… I would think that you were really busy playing the game and in need of help, and that f-ng grammar troll is going to burn in hell for making you jump through all those loops just for his/her own entertaintment.
No, by studying the grammar you don’t learn the language. You learn the grammar…
“I don’t think any argument towards one single approach is worthwhile.”
I don’t think anyone has argumented towards one single approach.
“listening+speaking” works quite well, so does “listening+reading” and “reading+writing”, but the vast majority agrees that “listening+reading+speaking+writing” works best. Whether you add “+grammar” to it is totally up to your personal preferences.
“Grammar+listening+reading” is the classical method of language teaching most school practice, and it stinks. I studied English with this method for 9 years and Swedish for 6, and I couldn’t express myself with either language, until I fell in love with a guy, who didn’t speak Finnish… I can consider myself lucky that he fell in love with me too, and had the patience to wade through hours of my horrible accent and mish-mash of prepositions and articles - but my strong verbs were really strong and perfect!
It’s like learning to paint by looking at art, paintbrushes and tubes of paint, and reading books about painting. I’m sorry to say this, but human beings learn by doing - we learn to paint by painting, and we learn to use a language by using the language.
What Chalkbrd means with “people don’t speak according to grammar rules but to what sounds right to their ear” is not that they don’t speak grammatically correct language, but that when they speak, they don’t think “this is a SVO language, so I need to start with the subject”. They say what they say because the grammatically correct way of saying it sounds best and feels right.
“Even Steve does admit that reading grammar is helpful”
You must be right, then.
Do you hear yourself? You are the only one here trying to push your opinion as The One and Only Truth. Do you even understand the difference between an opinion, a fact, data and belief? Where have you been called a liar? Who called you mentally deranged? Delusional? Insufferable bastard? I think you should apologize for being such an egocentric drama queen. I understand that in Imyirtseshem universe there is no space for diverse opinions, but you’re not in Imyirtseshem university.
