"Grammar Trolling" or why we should avoid grammar

To continue (in the interest of being even more long-winded),

Let’s address the idea of a “teaching grammar”. This is a grammar book, or grammar portion of a more general book, which is supposed to proactively help you acquire grammatical understanding through explanations and exercises.

If you are taking a class, and using a book with dialogues and readings, the textbook may select a sentence from the dialogue like “If I’d gone to the party, I wouldn’t have had a good time” and explain what it means. It may or may not use grammtical terminology, such as “In the ‘if’ part use would + the past particple, and in the other part, use “would have” + the past particple.” Is the term “past participle” confusing? Maybe. But it’s helpful to have a term to describe the verb form in English that is neither present tense form nor past tense form (although in many cases the past participle is the same as the past tense form).

The book may get more technical and try to talk about “first conditional”, and so on. IMO, the less terminology, the better. The main objection I have to many grammar-based materials is that they are written in such a confusing way. In my own study of Japanese, I think I’ve been lucky as most of the materials I’ve used have been like “this” means “that”. " X wo mita koto ga arimasu ka" means “Have you seen X.” Nice and simple. Very helpful. If the book also wants to tell me that “no” and “koto” are nominalizers in japanese, that’s fine. I know what a nominalizer is, so it’s helpful. Or I can just remember it as a pattern.

Then, (to continue with our class and our textbook) you may be asked to make some sentences such as “If I’d lived overseas as a child, I…” and use these as the basis of a conversation where you discuss what would or would not have happened if you had or had not done something in the past. Is this sort of thing completely useless? I don’t think I’d say that. I don’t think the evidence exists to say that this sort of thing is of no benefit. However, there also isn’t conclusive evidence showing this sort of thing helps.

Will you consciously remember how to construct this sort of sentence? Probably not. The next you see or hear that kind of sentence, will you be more likely to understand it? Maybe. Will trying to actively use that type of sentence in a meaningful conversation help you to understand it the next time you encounter it? Maybe. I don’t think we yet know the answer to those questions.

There are plenty of studies showing that traditional grammar-based instruction is not more effective than lots of comprehensible input - even when it comes to taking grammar tests. Students exposed to lots of comprehensible input acquire an intuitive understanding of syntax/etc. and are able to perform as well on grammar tests as students who are primarily instructed in grammar and a translation-based approach to memorizing vocabulary. Given that this seems to be the case, there’s absolutely no reason to have a class structured primarily around “grammar” study, as many unfortuantely still are.

Other books are instructional grammar books where sentence patterns, or morphological changes, are introduced and then students are expected to complete exercises to see if they can correctly construct these sentences and so on. Most people don’t like doing this. Is it helpful? I don’t know. When I began Japanese, I had some books that did this for verbs and adjectives. I did these exercises intensively and memorized the changes. atsui, atsukatta, atsukute, atsukereba, etc. oyogu, oyoida, oyoide, oyoganai, etc. I found that it helped me because when I saw a past tense verb, for example, I was able to figure out quickly what the present tense form probably was, and I could then check it in the dictionary. When I learned a new verb, I was also able to immediately use it correctly in the past tense. My friend who didn’t do this memorizing was unable to do this for a very long time. I didn’t spend years doing this - I just did it intensively over a few days. I personally think it turned out to be a good investment of time, although I agree that I probably would have gradually acquired this knowledge over time if I hadn’t “studied” it in the beginning.

However, can we claim that explanations of syntactical or morphological points have absolutely no benefit? This seems crazy to me. It’s like saying that consulting a dictionary is of no benefit. Of course, there are different opinons on how much we should consult a dictionary, whether we should consult a bilingual or unilingual dictionary, and so on.

Steve, for example, uses his online dictionary a lot - a lot more than most advocates of comprehensible input would recommend. However, he uses an online dictionary which he can check quickly and he doesn’t try to memorize the English equivalent - so although he uses his dictionary a lot, he uses it as a tool to make difficult content comprehensible, and he uses it quickly so he can still expose himself to lots of content.

Others may like consulting a reference grammar more than others - either in their native language or in the target language. I think the jury is out on a lot of this.

So, other than saying that grammar-focused instruction is not more effective than input-based instruction in developing grammatical accuracy, and is less effective in virtually every other way, I don’t think the research is there to say that grammar-based resources such as reference grammars, and possibly even instructional grammar books, provide no benefit to the learner, or have no role to play in language learning.

As Steve says, let’s just do what we like and what we feel is beneficial to us. As long as we remmeber that the majority of our time should involve exposing ourselves to meaningful, comprehensible input in the target language, we’ll probably be fine. Focusing on grammar “rules” at the expensive of input will not get you there. Memorizing “rules” you don’t understand will not help. Memorizing a bilingual dictionary is not a good idea. Trying to directly translate everything is not a good idea. Exposing yourself to lots of incomprehensible input will be of limited benefit.

Grammtical resources, if they do anything, help to make input more comprehensible, just as dictionaries do. Steve doesn’t like consulting grammatical resources very much, but uses his dictionary extensively. I don’t like looking lots of words up in the dictionary, but I certainly use my dictionary. I also consult my reference grammar if I’m curious to understand something. Everybody’s different - although Steve is a much more successful language learner than me :slight_smile:

doo, you did use the term “pedagogical grammar”, but I’m pretty sure that Imyirtseshem made clear that that was not what he was talking about.

You also haven’t explained what you mean by 'pedagogical grammar". I’m not sure that everyone will understand what you mean by this as it’s kind of a technical term and not everyone here is a language teacher.

I got the impression that different people were actually discussing different things when talking about “grammar”, which is what initially prompted me to make my post.

It’s been my impression (perhaps incorrect) that most language learners use “grammar” to mean changes in word endings - declensions, conjugations, etc. - and sentence level constructions like “I’ll go if it doesn’t rain this weekend” and “I’d go if it weren’t raining right now” explained in “rule”-like form with lots of terminology, followed by exercises which you either get right or wrong.

Imyshirtseshem,

I’m not sure that you were being belittled for doing what you do. I suspected that that was what you doing because I’ve seen you in other places comment on linguistics.

I think people were just talking about different things. When you said “study grammar”, other people probably heard “do mindless conjugations in a workbook”.

Edit: I think the wording of this post was unclear. I meant that I had a hunch about what you meant when you said you used grammar resources. And I think some people may have made incorrect assumptions about what you meant by grammar study.

So you weren’t being belittled for doing what you do, you were being belittled for what others may have assumed you were doing.

"I’m pretty sure that Imyirtseshem made clear that that was not what he was talking about. "

Where?

“You also haven’t explained what you mean by 'pedagogical grammar”. I’m not sure that everyone will understand what you mean by this as it’s kind of a technical term and not everyone here is a language teacher. "

And this is not a language classroom. The onus is on others to look it up or ask.

I’ve never done ‘mindless conjugations in a workbook’ and never will. I’ve never liked exercises and drills. That sort of grammar practice simply bores me and I find no benefit in it. Instead, I learn how the conjugations work, among many other things. You know, developing knowledge of how the grammar works.

Can you give some concrete examples?

One more thing, which I’ve mentioned many, many times: one of the most successful language learners which I’m aware of uses grammar extensively - Alexander Arguelles.

dooo,

“Where?”

In his posts.

“And this is not a language classroom. The onus is on others to look it up or ask.”

There is no onus. And I’m not sure how this not being a language classroom is relevant. In any situation in life, if you introduce terminology that your audience is unlikely to be familar with, it’s good to define it or give an example. It’s true though that if anyone doesn’t understand, they can ask. All it would take though is “…pedagogical grammar, by which I mean…”. Is it unreasoanble to expect that people in a language learning forum will understand “pedagogical grammar”? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps I’m patronizing people by thinking that an explanation is warranted.

At any rate, it seemed to me that folks on this thred were talking at cross-purposes because they were talking about different things.

Just for the record, I looked up “pedagogical grammar” in wikipedia and I don’t think the entry is particularly helpful. Is it not also the case that there is a wide range of things which may be meant by “pedagogical grammar”?

Where in his posts?

Maybe you should look up “onus”.

BTW, I understand what past-participle means. :smiley: Yiddish has no simple past and only a past-participle. An interesting feature of a language which I love so much.

dooo,

It’s not that I don’t understand the word “onus”, it’s that I disagree with your assertion that the onus is on people to look it up or ask if they don’t understand technical terminology. I think that, if there is an onus, it is on people to define any technical terminology or jargon that they introduce into a conversation if there is a reasonable chance that people in the audience may not be familiar with it. But, more than saying “the onus” is on people to do this, I’d just say that it’s considerate and it helps to create a productive exchange.

As for where in his posts, to be honest, I can’t be bothered to go back and look now. I never had the impression that he was talking about following a pedagogical grammar. I could just as easily ask you to point out what he said that made you think he was talking about pedagogical grammars.

No, I don’t believe I was, Bortrun. Unless you count the grammar sections in books such as TY and Colloquial, which I’ll use to get a grasp on the basic texts within them. But, as soon as I’ve finished with that, I’ll move onto real reference grammars. Could that really be called pedagogical grammar? Really, I’ve said from the start that this is not about language classrooms - something I’m really not interested in.

“I could just as easily ask you to point out what he said that made you think he was talking about pedagogical grammars.”

Well because that is the term I used and he answered to.

I think people are more likely to misunderstand “onus” than “pedagogical”.

I first used the term ‘grammar’ and dooo, you changed it to ‘pedagogical grammar’. Still, you have failed to give any further explanation and have not actually put forth any arguments. The only thing you’ve been doing is trying to make me look like a fool. You’re now trying to do it to Bortrun. (And failing…)

Well…uhhh never intended this with my thread. This discussion could go on forever. Regardless of any scientific, empirical evidence or personal experience, who is to say what is right and what is wrong. As long as we enjoy what we do, who is to say otherwise. Please let’s not take this any further…

:frowning:

Please it’s time to end the debate it’s getting so bored!

The precise value of the active study of formal grammar probably varies quite steeply according to … the nature of the target language (analytic or synthetic) …

Yeap! That is what I believe to be the most important point!

Those arguing for learning without grammar probably had experience just with analytic languages.

That should take a way longer to get proper “output” skills in a synthetic language without learning the grammar! That doesn’t mean you have to learn declension tables as they are (we are not databases anyway): you really can acquire all the endings naturally over time but you have to understand the principles and the purposes of inflections to do so.

Yes, this does make a big difference. Still, in isolating languages, there can be some quite difficult grammar rules. Some of the languages of South-East Asia have some rather difficult rules with their particles and various other things (especially verbal aspects). Obviously, one doesn’t have to learn conjugations in Mandarin (and other Chinese languages, to my knowledge). This leads many to claim (falsely) that Chinese has ‘no grammar’.

I know, as a learner of a polysynthetic language, that it’s near impossible to pick it up, without grammar, as a second language learner. I’ll never get enough input to pick this all up ‘naturally’ (something I only think truly happens for our first language(s)/full interactive environments, but that’s another discussion for another day).

Certainly, I can appreciate what you say about not having to learn declension tables for synthetic languages, Eugrus. I think that this depends on the language. For a language like Inuktitut, no, it’s not necessary. It’s very regular and not hard to pick. Just learn the verb and the prefix pronouns, other than that it’s a matter of learning the sandhi.

On the other hand, Navajo, is very irregular, has a very complex verbal system and it can be difficult to even notice when you’re looking at the same verb or same person of two different verbs. Learning each verb, is like a whole other world. haha Anyone who has looked into it would know.

Grammar to me means the attempt to describe and explain normal usage in a language. It is different from the usage itself, which we may or may not notice or observe on our own.We all want to learn common usage, but we may not all want to spend too much time with the explanations.

BTW I see no real difference between prescriptive and descriptive grammar, in that both are attempts to describe the accepted norms of usage in a particular language or form of a language. What differs is whether we accept only one form of usage as “correct”.

Personally, as I have said, I find that these descriptions are only helpful after I have first had considerable exposure to a language. I do not know what is meant by analytic and synthetic languages but let’s take Russian as an example of a language with complex grammar. Let us take just one issue, the use of the genitive. Here is a description (and only a partial one at that) of the use of the genitive.
http://bit.ly/slnn97

In my view, there is no way we can grasp what is said here, until we haves struggled with the language for a while and experienced these things.

I find that concentrated exposure to different usage patterns, which I can achieve at LingQ by tagging for different cases in Russian and then reviewing these lists, is more helpful than these explanations. But I do occasionally glance over the explanations and it can help.

Some explanations are clear but complex. I.e. in Russian, one of something is in the nominative singular, 2, 3, 4 in the genitive singular, and 5 and more in the genitive plural. Some explanations, however, just don’t make sense, because they seek to describe something we have no sense for, like the various explanations I have read about the aspects of verbs in Russian. For example the following.

" The Russian verbal system differs from that of other European languages in one important way: it is built primarily on the distinction of aspect (whether the action has been or will be completed) rather than tense (whether the action occurred in the past, present, or will occur in the future). Aspect is a verbal category that distinguishes between actions which are successfully completed once and those which are not. Actions successfully completed once are called perfective, from the Latin word perfectus which means ‘completed’. Those not successfully completed once may be either (a) in progress (hence not completed) or (b) repeated (hence not carried out once). These actions are called ‘imperfective’ (guess what Latin imperfectus means).

Some words cannot express the perfective-imperfective distinction, e.g. говори- in the sense of "talk" (it can be perfective in the sense of "speak" or "say"), работай- "work", думай- "think", сиде- "sit", стоя- "stand", and лежа- "lie" all refer to extended processes which cannot be thought of easily as being successfully completed once. Hence they have only imperfective forms. "

Imyirtseshem,

So kind of you to just brush off everything I said as a malicious attack on you.

Have all the grammar in the world. Do what ever you want with it. Glad to see you found something that makes you happy. Good for you. Now, could you PLEASE get over yourself?

I see you as an equal, just another person trying to learn foreign languages, sharing your experience and opinion, just like everyone else here is doing. I don’t think your opinion is any lesser or worse than anyone else’s opinion, I just thought you express your opinion in a very dysfunctional manner. I still see you like that, I have just added the “drama queen” to the impression.

You are trying to make it look like you are the victim here, as if you were being bashed, poor you, because “you like grammar and it works for you”. THAT is what I mean with “drama queen”. Exaggerating, getting offended because someone -OH HORROR - had the guts to DISAGREE with YOU!!!

Frankly, it would have been wonderful to see you say “Ok, I’m a drama queen! And now I will make a very big exit and act all huff and puff offended and upset”. I would have thought you’re very funny with refreshing self-distance, and I would have applauded. Now, “you all will be sorry when I’m dead” comes to mind…

No-one has said “NO-ONE MUST ABSOLUTELY UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES STUDY GRAMMAR EVER!!!”

  • and EVEN IF someone had said so, IT WOULDN’T MATTER, because no-one needs to do what someone else says.

Language learning is a very subjective matter.

There are people out there who hate flashcards with vengeance. I love them. I use them all the time, and I recommend them to everyone who asks me how to learn languages. But I say it pointing out that “it works for me, I don’t know if it will work for you, you have to try it out.”

There are people out there who hate grammar. You love it. So do I. I wish I could recommend that to everyone too, but I can’t because I have heard of so many who find it incomprehensible, difficult, pointless, abstract and offputting. There are polyglots who don’t study certain languages because they were hit over the head with grammar when they first met the language. It is so sad.
So I say “Grammar is not necessary, but it’s helpful”. If people believe me or not, it’s their choice, and their business all together, and it has nothing to do with me.

You are right in that your enemies won’t be sorry to see you leave. You will be punishing the people who agree with you, who found comfort in hearing your thoughts on the importance and beauty of grammar, who drew a breath of relief to hear someone say “grammar is important”, because that is what they were thinking, but didn’t dare to say - either because they were afraid of someone telling them they were wrong, or because they weren’t sure they would be able to express themselves using correct grammar… >:-> There’s a lot of people reading this discussion, and the vast majority never say anything to anyone.

I’m just wondering… why would you choose to please your enemies?

P.S. It is surprisingly un-benefitting for anyone to only participate in discussions where everyone agrees with you :smiley:

P.P.S. It might be beneficial for everyone to read the following posts made in another forum: Care2 is the world's largest social network for good, a community of over 40 million people standing together, starting petitions and sharing stories that inspire action.