Grammar.. Grrrr so annoying

Open Forum
1

so I’m listening to some chinesepod podcasts because… I like to punish myself and their podcasts are rather terrible. They go on and on about grammar, “lexical chunks” and explaining xy and z mostly in english… it’s really quite annoying and I’m glad I stopped listening to their podcasts because I was stuck thinking it was helpful and wondering why my Chinese wasn’t improving though I was forcing myself to listen to so many podcasts.

Anyway, very interesting to look back at their podcast and their philosophy before I delete them from my computer.

In my opinion the reason it is so annoying to me is that it contributes nothing to my understanding, They were talking about a pattern in the Chinese, but the meaning of the sentence seemed so obvious that talking about some pattern only distracts from understanding it. I find I remember what they were talking about in english, but I remember nothing of what was said in Chinese.

anyhow, if you want the way to not teach a language look no further than chinesepod… perhaps it has worked for someone, but they must have more tolerance for incessant babble about stuff that is not interesting.

2

My sentiments exactly. Yet chinesepod is very popular.

I do not know one grammatical term about Chinese, yet I manage to speak the language. Most things are either obvious or clear up in due course.

3

I must admit that ChinesePod podcasts are terrible; however, you can download all the dialogues (without the English explanation) with the transcriptions for free on their website with the 7 days trial (it is f**king long to do though, so try to find a torrent or something). The newbies dialogues are really to slow, but the elementary ones are not so bad and the intermediates and upper-intermediates one are, in my opinion, really decent. With those three levels, you will have more than 700 audio files of about 25 seconds to 2 minutes each on anything and everything with the transcriptions and the translations (which are kind of nice when you are a beginner like me).

Although its podcasts are terrible, ChinesePod is great source of free material, so let’s try to not throw the baby out with the bathwater :wink: .

It makes me wonder: there is already some of their material on LingQ, but do we have to ask them for every file we would like to share with the community or do we have an authorization to put any of their material on LingQ?

4

You should ask him. He gets PR out of it, since you should list his URL if he lets you use some of his content.

5

Who is “him”?

6

Whoever runs ChinesePod.

7

Well according to wikipedia their older stuff is under a creative commons license, which I think means you can put their material on lingq. though I’m not any expert. ChinesePod - Wikipedia

I agree with you Sigma about just using the dialogs, I did that, signed up for the trial and downloaded the dialogs and the pdfs,it was really tedious. I also don’t like their translations (they seem to have been done by a non-native speaker) so I copied the dialogs and deleted the translation which was even more tedious and time consuming… then my only complaint is that the words in the vocab list aren’t all the words I need.

Anyway, I thought Ken Carrol was in charge of chinesepod, but he’s left due to some scandal with an english training school he also had his hands in. I think they were very effective at self-promotion…

8

There are various creative commons licenses and to be sure we should ask. It needs to be a creative commons license which does not exclude commercial uses since LingQ is considered a commercial site even though all content is available free of charge to anyone.

9

Thank you for the link bobafruit!

Here’s what I found:

"Copyright Information
All materials available through Praxis Language’s websites are the property of Praxis Language or its licensors, and are protected by copyright, trademark and other intellectual property laws.*

*ChinesePod lessons 1-1127 only, SpanishPod lessons 1-295 only, FrenchPod lessons 1-107 only, ItalianPod lessons 1-75 only, MP3 lesson content is licensed under a Creative Commons 3.0 Unported license."
http://praxislanguage.com/about/copyright-information/

Also some legal stuff about Creative Commons:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/

So, yeah, it seems we can upload some of their stuff on LingQ without any problem as long as we give ChinesePod the credit of the work.

Just need to trim the beginning and end of those audio files to take out the annoying parts, and we will start to a have a very decent chinese library!

10

another thing about their method, they seem to focus a lot on the kind of parts of the language that Steve talks about not needing to focus on. Like, “why is this phrase said in this way”, “why do you have to put this word at the end in this kind of phrase but not in that kind”.

anyhow, after listening to a lot of their dialogs the cheesiness of the dialogs have really gotten to me, So I’ve stopped. Anyhow I’m using the more challenging stuff here at lingq, which is more authentic and interesting. some of their stuff has got that after school special kind of cheesiness which grates on my nerves almost as much now as listening to Ken talk about lexical chunks.

as far as my reading of the license, there’s nothing about using it in commercial sites. but I’m not a lawyer :stuck_out_tongue:

11

For the license, if it would have been specified “noncommercial” like this: Creative Commons — Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported — CC BY-NC 3.0, we wouldn’t have the right to use it on LingQ, but it is not the case, so we are fine!

12

It’s easy to jump on the ‘Grammar Lessons Are Useless’ bandwagon.

In the English speaking countries where I have lived, grammar lessons are no longer taught in schools. That’s why so few English speaking people know how to use an apostrophe. (Or a colon, or a semi-colon, or indeed a full-stop.)

I think learning a language is like driving. It’s 99 percent practice, but if you pick up a good grammar book at the right point in your learning, it can clear up a few things.

When I say ‘the right point’, if we leave it too long to learn the fundamentals of grammar, the grammatical mistakes we make will probably become ingrained once we’ve become fluent (and I know this term is ambiguous - I mean ‘once we start to speak quickly’). If social communication is the only goal, we may never need to learn grammar. But if we need to use our foreign languages for work, interpretation or translation, then we shouldn’t be too scathing of grammatical explanations. I accept that if your goal is to speak twelve languages in one lifetime, dwelling on the finer points of grammar is of limited extra benefit.

I know nothing about the chinesepod. But when learning Japanese, I have found certain books extremely useful:

A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar
A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar
象は鼻が長い
日本語文型辞典

In my lifetime I’ve met a few lucky individuals who pick up languages like a baby. They don’t seem to have lost that innate ability to learn language. Maybe Steve is one of those people. I don’t know him well enough to say. But for the rest of us… There’s nothing wrong with dipping into a grammatical explanation now and then.

That’s my two cents’ worth.

13

In my opinion, knowing how to use a colon, or semi-colon is a relatively useless skill for most people. The reason why so many people have trouble expressing themselves well in English today, is , in my opinion, because people today read a lot less today.

Focusing on grammar, and asking kids to analyze texts, is a good way to destroy kids interest in reading. This is confirmed to me by my grandson.

Of course kids should also write more, too, longer essays and the like, not just email, and SMS.

I never found grammar books of any use in Japanese or Chinese. I cannot think of a single explanation of the obvious or grammar term that helped me. However, for inflected languages I do find myself consulting conjugation and declension tables from time to time, but I am not sure it does me any good.

I do not believe that grammar mistakes become ingrained if we focus on lots of input. Things may be different for official translations, but for social, business and most interpreting situations I have experienced,(and this includes business and government delegations where I have interpreted) a large vocabulary and the ability to understand well are far more important than details of grammar. People whom I have met who use other languages effectively, and I have met and worked with many, generally do not bother themselves too much with grammar books. It does not really matter whether they only speak one foreign language or many.

However, I confess that I do occasionally skim through a grammar book, in Russian and Portguese to see if I can pick up something that I missed from my input. I am not sure but I think I get some benefit. In the other languages, when I try to read a grammar book, my eyes kind of glaze over.

14

asking kids to analyze texts, is a good way to destroy kids interest in reading

We can safely make it through life without once making use of a colon or semi-colon. You obviously feel the same way about the apostrophe, however, and dropping that sacrifices clarity of meaning. Only for those of us who understand its usage in the first place, though.

Asking kids to analyse texts is different from teaching kids the very basics of grammar. I’ve met people who, as adults, say 'My teachers never taught us how to use an apostrophe and it’s bugged me. Then, when I learnt I felt annoyed that they didn’t bother, because it was actually pretty darned easy."

Different strokes for different folks. We can only speak about what’s worked for us personally. A grammar explanation is only going to be of use if you find it slightly interesting in the first place. This comes back to what I said initially: You have to be at the point where you’ve wondered about something. If you know where to go to look it up, then you’re at an advantage.

I do think grammatical ‘errors’ become ingrained. I know plenty of examples - immigrants who moved here as an adult and learned English to the point where they can get by. I hesitate to call these idiosyncrasies ‘errors’ because this is another variety of English, influenced by their native tongue, and anyone who learns a foreign language as an adult has put in a tremendous amount of effort - and continues to do so, every single day of their lives. Learning a language as an adult is quite different from learning as a kid.

15

The big thing I think that makes the chinesepod podcast so uninteresting is that they talk too much about grammar and parts of the language, they do it in English in the earlier levels and then Chinese in the later levels. I know it sounds strange, but I don’t care about learning about Chinese!
I want to learn Chinese and be able to communicate in Chinese, but I will never have any need to communicate about Chinese. Even if I were a teacher of Chinese as a foreign language, I wouldn’t need to know how to talk about Chinese, since grammar instruction is not an effective way to teach a language.

16

totoro,

I am not sure why it is “obvious” to you that I feel that apostrophes are unnecessary. They are necessary. People who don’t use them are just being lazy. First of all, it is not a difficult concept. Missing letter = apostrophe. Second of all, a little attention paid while reading should tell most people who and why they are used. I think anyone who does not use apostrophes does not read very much.

However, the rules for colons and semi-colons, are more confusing and more arbitrary, and it is quite possible to write very well without ever using them.

Most people do not know the grammar of their own language, and do not wonder about their own language. I do not wonder about languages that I am learning. I just accept the patterns of the language as normal, and try to make it normal for me.

Those immigrants who want to improve, who want to develop language use patterns more similar to native speakers, have to make a special effort. They have to listen and read a lot. With a lot of exposure, they start to become familiar with the language, and at that point, reading a grammar book can also help them, if they are interested.

On the other hand, those Chinese speakers who continue to say " my husband, she", or Germans who say " I live here since 5 years", or Frenchmen who say " Heven when I am 'ungry, I 'ate to heat 'amburgers", and all the people who say “I am very interesting in listen him” or “the train leave at 3 pm”, it is not because they do not know the rules or did not study grammar for 10 years.

I recently sat in, via skype, on a class of unemployed professional Chinese immigrants in Toronto. I explained to them some of my views on language learning, the importance of input, of listening and reading and of vocabulary. The comments I got back included the following;

“Yes but I want to improve my pronunciation.”( I explained that her poor phrasing was a much bigger issue, although also gave some advice re pronunciation)

“I never read a book because there are so many words I do not understand”. ( I had suggested improving their understanding to the point where they can enjoy reading a novel, as a goal.)

“By nature I like to find the easy way, that means usually speaking Chinese, reading Chinese and watching Chinese videos.” ( I told hime that I was working on a system for learning English while only listening to and reading Chinese.)

To learn a language requires, mostly, a lot of input, and in an organized and systematic way, dare I say it, like LingQ!

17

Steve, I agree with what you wrote at 6:02. Another related thing is “spelling” in the English language. I think the best thing a youngster can do to be a competent speller is just to read a lot, for pleasure. Then he’ll be exposed to the appearance of a great many words. This has to be a more effective method than sitting there with a word list, also it will be a lot more fun, and the kid’s general knowledge and кругозор will be broadened.
Re the actual posted thread, yeah, I too don’t like it when they blather in English in between the chunks of foreign language, it breaks one’s concentration, and often what they say is just total nonsense. Eg " Laura, 23, and Hazel, 27, are going to the market place to buy carrots…"

18

Vankrot, I think you are completely right about spelling. Starting from a young age my mother and I both read lots of books, and we’re both fairly good at spelling, my father on the other hand doesn’t read very much and is a dreadful speller.

19

Steve, I gave you a quotation and you still didn’t realise you’d missed the apostrophe in your very own post.

The apostrophe is slightly more complicated than you describe. Not much, but slightly. I’m still not convinced you have ever learnt how it’s used. I don’t expect posts on internet forums to be perfect, but there are so many non-native English speakers here that I make some effort to proof read what I’m writing. I appreciate it from others too.

On all other areas, we are basically in agreement. You said you’ve dipped into grammar guides on occasion, while focusing on genuine practice with native speakers. I have done exactly the same.

20

Totoro,

The Forum is not a place where we correct each other. I make lots of mistakes here, typos, misspelled words and more, in English and in other languages. I write quickly, commenting on as many Forums as I can, while also answering people on my blog etc. You should see the typos I have on the titles of my blog posts which I do not notice until later.

I do not correct others here and do not encourage members to correct other members’ posts, in whatever language. That would just put a damper on the main purpose here, which is to communicate. The odd mistake will not corrupt anyone.

The fact that I missed an apostrophe twice, once in my original, and again when you quoted me (which I did not read), does not mean that I do not know that the apostrophe is used to denote possession, as in " kids’ interest". It is really not that difficult a concept, not a big deal. The person who said to you 'My teachers never taught us how to use an apostrophe and it’s bugged me. Then, when I learnt I felt annoyed that they didn’t bother, because it was actually pretty darned easy." is just a lazy learner who blames his teacher for his own shortcomings.