Unlike you, I like to be corrected. I don’t see it as a negative.
Totoro, in professional teaching circles, best practice in grammar correction nowadays is self or peer correction with teacher prompts. Nest time you see a mistake perhaps, assuming you hope to teach someone something, you can just indicate the line number. (I’ve made a deliberate error here so you can get a start.)
Thanks for the advice on professional teaching.
If two people on a forum decide to help each other out by agreeing to correct each other’s grammar it’s nobody else’s business.
“If two people on a forum decide to help each other out by agreeing to correct each other’s grammar”
When has that happened in this forum?
"it’s nobody else’s business. "
on public forum, it is anybody’s business.
Sheesh, I thought you said you liked to be corrected.
もし、この「パブリック」・フォーラムが、言語学習のコミュニティLingQの一部でないならば、Doooさんの主張はおおいに納得できます。
If this forum did not constitute the language learning community, I would agree with Dooo.
（I welcome any corrections.）
Yutaka, what are not agreeing with?
This is not the first time the question has come up of correcting people who post on this forum. I have stated before, and I will restate now, that corrections, without the specific request of the person posting, are not welcome.
Totoro, you may like corrections and you can run your own forum however you like. I do not like corrections when my goal is just to communicate. I find that it inhibits communication. However, other people posting here may indicate their desire to be corrected.
Now that you are aware of the rules here, please refrain from correcting people unless they ask to be corrected. If you do correct people, in response to their request, I suggest you avoid your pedantic tone (“I’m still not convinced you have ever learnt how it’s used”.)
Yutaka,
This is not a forum for language correction. It is a forum where people communicate.
“It is a forum where people communicate.”
I agree with Steve on that. I did not say that this was a forum “for language correction.”
The following exchange on another thread might explain our view of corrections at LingQ. We do not want our learners to be nervous while communicating. Note that any comment to our forum can be easily submitted for correction. Learners can also ask for correction directly here if they like, but I think it would detract from the spontaneous nature of the forum if members were constantly correcting each other. I do not encourage it but people are, of course, free to do what they want.
May 19, 2010 06:35
skims
skims GB
47 posts Does anyone get nervous before/during a conversation in a foreign language?
I’m going to have my first conversation in French here in a few weeks, and I think I’ll be nervous talking to a native speaker, in part due to my experience of being forced to speak at school when I never wanted to. I know I’ll make many mistakes, but I’m afraid of making them - not sure why though since it’s a part of the learning process.
May 19, 2010 06:44
steve
steve CA
Administrator
4127 posts Mistakes are good, since you get a report back of your mistakes. Our tutors try not to interrupt the speaker but to send them a list of their errors with the correct words and phrases. The learners can then import the report and save the words and phrases, while the memory of what was said is still fresh in their minds. I find this really useful.
In writing or speaking at LingQ it is good to just let it all hang out and make mistakes. That is the point of the reports, to give you a snapshot of your language, as it is. This helps to identify your gaps so that you can pay more attention to them in your listening and reading.
Mistakes are glorious. Mistakes are what make us learn.
スティーブさんの主張は、基本的に納得できます。
なお、私の母語は日本語なので、フォーラムに日本語で書くときには、できる限りスタンダードな日本語で書き、おかしな日本語にならないように気をつけたいと思います。
The other day we had a thread about this over at HTLAL, where people almost questioned why they weren’t corrected!
I’ll rephrase some of what I wrote there.
Seeing a lot of posts with corrections (from other members or original posters) would only clutter up the forum. Use common sense and don’t write what you can’t spell.
The only exception to this guideline would be the non-English forums, but still I don’t think that anyone who has just started in French/Russian/etc. would participate with mediocre spelling and grammar.
This being said, it’s probably a good idea to give some suggestions for improvement to a newcomer/beginner whose writing is terrible, beyond comprehension, “chatty” etc.
While feedback is good, I wonder if the forum itself is the proper place to get the feedback. In follow-up posts, I mean. If the message is clear, and somebody happens to write “then” instead of “than”, I won’t correct it (and sincerely hope that nobody else will either).
Some people don’t seem to think twice before posting. There are nearly always follow-up posts like “orgnize->organize; thats great->that’s great”. OK, the forum engine is to blame since there is no edit function (yet?), but I still find these extra posts more annoying than the occasionally misspelled word.
Maybe it’s just me, but I never thought that (any of) the LingQ members wrote posts (primarily) to get corrected. I definitely don’t. I’ve participated in group discussions where the conversation leader (i.e. teacher) corrected every tiny mistake during the conversation. Very time-consuming and distracting. Why not giving us an electric schock after each mistake… then we’d really learn. 
My main critique is that the forum itself isn’t (or shouldn’t be used as) a correction service, unless the writing is terrible (and, unless the post is submitted FOR correction) . If I can’t put together the most basic sentences, I’m not ready for participating in online threads.
Is there a thread regarding rules for posting on this forum? I asked for one, and Mark said it wasn’t needed.
Maybe it isn’t needed, but having a list of rules to follow can avoid unnecessarily stepping on toes. It can also avoid the need for having to repeat yourself agnosium, and multiple posts related to the same problematic behavior.
I still remember the grammar lessons I had for Cantonese. SVO (Subject, Verb Object) or S(TP)VO (Subject, (Time, Place) Verb, Object). It was really confusing at the time, and didn’t help much. Once you get going in the language…you really don’t need to think about how to form a sentence, it just comes naturally.
Having said that…I think studying sentence patters can be helpful:
“You are ____.”
“He is ____.”
In basic language learning, grammar isn’t all that essential, but I question that logic when it comes to use of the written language and in terms of professional usage.
A good friend of mine, and former co-worker is a university graduate with a Master’s degree. English is his second language, but he has been schooled in this country since childhood, and is fluent in English. When reviewing some of his professional documentation, I was shocked at how bad his grammar was. It was horrendous…and I actually wondered, how someone could get a Master’s degree in a subject that requires extensive writing skills, and not be able to write a coherent sentence. It certainly wasn’t due to a lack of practice, we were in many of the same classes in graduate school together, and we had plenty of practice. For some reason…he was given a pass and allowed to graduate with a skill that is absolutely essential.
I realize that this experience is just anecdotal, but I’ve read more than one news article regarding employers complaining about college graduates, that can’t even write a simple business letter.
I think understanding of grammar isn’t all that important to those of us that only have the goal of recreational use of a language. But if you’re goal is to use the language in professional communication, understanding how to use formal grammar is absolutely essential.
Jeff,
I totally agree with what you said.
Like Steve, I write posts mostly to communicate. I would hate for my grammar to be judged on the posts I make here, LOL.
There is a place at LingQ for people to submit writing for correction. These forums aren’t one of them.
I participate on forums where topics are often fiercely debated. One technique used by those with poor debating skills is the ad hominem attack, where the debater starts attacking the poster rather than debating the premise of the argument.
Example:
“Why should I believe your argument about Obama’s health plan, when you can’t even string a sentence together?”
In this thread, the argument was about the validity of learning and teaching grammar as part of language acquisition. Instead of advocating or opposing the original premise, the poster started attacking Steve’s grammar. This kind of logical fallacy is extremely frustrating to deal with, and really does nothing to support or oppose the premise of the argument.
I think a forum can serve well to test if one can transmit the message correctly.
It servers well to see if the message that people are getting from what I wrote is exactly what I wanted it to be.
If somebody wants grammar instruction there are better places to get it.
The only problem I can see is when a non native speaker uses an expression that doesn’t sound natural in that language and another learner sees it and copies it.
But it’s so easy to forget this kinds of words and expressions that I wouldn’t worry about it.
From personal experience, there were so many words that I tried very hard to learn, that I saw in different places and that I’ve always forgotten…
What I’ve got from the research done on the subject(by Steve Krashen and others) is that writing skill is affected more by the reading you do, and practicing writing doesn’t actually improve your writing. Sounds kind of counter-intuitive, but I guess it’s like language, You need lots of exposure to lots of good writing in order to write well.
I guess, this would be why someone like Dan Brown still writes fairly terribly, even though he’s spent many many many many hours practicing writing.
bobafruit: Haha yes I roughly agree with that but I don’t have a strong opinion on it. Anyone can sit down and physically write, more important to have read a lot to “feed the brain”, and of course it’s important to remain switched on and thinking while you are writing.
Steve,
The reason I pointed out that particular part of your post - the missing apostrophe - was to make the point that some things are reasonably complex and we need a grammar explanation to sort them out. The apostrophe is not difficult, as you say. But it has exceptions and I don’t believe many people can know all of those exceptions without being told, or without reading about it in a book.
I am actually quite sure you know how to use it and I shouldn’t have suggested you don’t. I am genuinely sorry for that. If I’m honest with myself, I was looking for a bite and I got it.
In fact, what I really think about you so far is this: that you avoid bothering about things like apostrophes as a middle finger to correctness. You have successfully demonstrated, from learning all the languages you have, that it’s beneficial to gloss over small things in favour of communicating. I happen to agree with you on this point, unless, as I mentioned earlier, you’re learning a language for translation or interpretation purposes, or to use as a legal interpreter, in which case these things are important. In that case, a good grammar guide is useful, and only if it comes at the right stage in learning. I’m speaking for myself here. I feel that’s all we can ever do. I’d hate to see someone cut off their nose to spite their face, hearing from you that Grammar Guides are on a par with bibles etc. (I’m referring here to the fact you recommended Dawkins to me, knowing nothing about my religious beliefs at all.)
I didn’t realise that so many nit pickers have preceded me on this site, though I should have guessed, as I’m not new to sites like these. This has already become a sore point over a long period of time for you. I don’t want to be mistaken for someone who goes about nitpicking. The one error I noticed in you is one I have noticed quite a bit, but on reflection it wasn’t the best way to put my point across.
Which is this:
Sometimes we need to look something up in order to get it right. Grammar books are not all bad. They can be helpful to some people some of the time. For so many years language teaching has focused on grammar (which was obviously wrong) and the pendulum has swung completely the other way. I’d like to see it settle a little closer to the middle, which is where I genuinely think it is. You have demonstrated yourself, Steve, that knowing a little grammar is not a bad thing. This forum feels slightly too evangelical in its protestations against grammar. Broad statements like ‘grammar is useless’ (I’m paraphrasing), make me very suspicious and I feel I’ve joined some group of religious nutters.
Steve, I do think you tend to write your posts a little too much on the fly and you don’t always look at something closely before responding to it. Yes, I do hold you to quite high standards because you are the administrator. And yes, over the past day or so since I got your attention with an insult, I’ve noticed you have paid very close attention to what I’ve been writing.
I have never corrected anyone on their typos. Typos are a specific type of error and most people can tell the difference. When a typographical error of mine is likely to cause confusion, sure go ahead and clarify.
For my part, I’ll only comment on someone’s language when asked specifically. Apart from anything else, it’s a waste of time.
By the way, I was listening to a Japanese podcast of yours and you said that alcohol is good for language learning. Tell me you were joking, right? I couldn’t tell. Surely alcohol is to language what it is to driving and love making.
It was me who got this thread off topic and I’m sorry. It was far more interesting to me before we started arguing about typos.
@dooo
Line 1
Hi everyone,
Sorry,I did not read almost anything at there,but I would like to ask you:
How to put words correctly in the sentences,and how to know what kind of preposition to use? It really nervous me…I am always doing many silly mistakes.Can you help me to understand?