ad polyglot2 (…) I was thinking about making a list of all the books I have and offering to answer people’s questions about them (so that they could make an informed purchasing decision), but then I thought, who cares? (…)
I think this would be extremely useful and also make for an interesting read even for people who don’t intend to buy any specific books.
I would love to hear more about your textbooks for Arabic, Japanese and Russian.
Do you ever use any kind of frequency lists or phrasebooks (I’m not talking about phrasebooks for tourists but books covering many different areas)?
I would also be interested in hearing what the 14 languages are that you intend to study.
ad SanneT: (…) I should think that quite a few of us share this particular character flaw! (…)
I have many difficult to learn English, when I know that someone speak 23 lenguages I don’t belive, but in this world there are many things very unbeliveble. I think I’m rude. One day I will speak English very well.
Don’t feel bad; a lot of the problems in learning languages is overcoming one’s shyness or feelings of inadequacy. Most polyglots actually aren’t very good at their languages; they speak at a basic level and then the media calls them '“fluent” and acts as if they speak 20+ languages just as well as a native speaker. The few polyglots that do speak very well (like C1) have spent years speaking and know a lot less languages, from 5-10. Plus, the definition of “fluent” is pretty variable. And some people may speak fluently but not know many words nor have a good grasp of grammar.
I personally am fine with just knowing one foreign language and derive great satisfaction and improving my knowledge in the one language rather than having a broad, basic level of a lot of foreign languages.
Conversely, others want to spend the same amount of time as a specialist on 10+ languages. Good for them. But they won’t be as good in 10 languages as the specialist will be in one.
“Hyperglots” inspire some people and discourage others. I think they may be discouraging for those people who are having or have had difficulties learning a language because the “hyperglots” make it look so easy and fast that they think there must be someone wrong with them, they are not talented enough, etc. while those people who have learned one or two languages to mastery over a long period of time are much more inspiring because they represent the reality for most people.
I find it very odd to see Moses and others teaching language concepts (and in some cases incorrectly) that they themselves just learned very recently. It’s as though they read a chapter in Teach Yourself and then go on-line to teach what they have learned (or in some cases offer tutoring services). Why would I go to him to get specific information about languages when I can get more reliable information elsewhere? Why not just point these people to the place where you learned something? Is it that other people do not like to read for themselves and need to have material skimmed and regurgitated by someone else regardless of how imperfect that knowledge/pronunciation may be?
“Hyperglots” can teach us a lot about “how” to learn languages and about various techniques, but I prefer to get my actual language lessons from native speakers or from speakers who have mastered the language over a long period of time. Of what use are Arabic lessons from someone who has only studied Arabic for six months? There is also only so much “talking” and “research” you can do about “how” to study a language - at some point, you just have to start learning it. I think some people get stalled on the “how” or “how many” or “which language” aspect and never get down to actually learning anything.
" I think they may be discouraging for those people who are having or have had difficulties learning a language because the “hyperglots” make it look so easy and fast that they think there must be someone wrong with them, they are not talented enough, etc."
I am just speculating here, but I think for such people, it also doesn’t help when the successful polyglots continually insist that there is nothing special about them, that they are not talented, and that anybody can become a polyglot just as easily. These things may be true, but a failed language learner might not want to hear this kind of thing.
Benny is ok in Spanish, about a C1. (Yes, I know he passed the C2 Instituto Cervantes test but he’s probably rusty and you really need to be living in country for like 5+ years to be very close to native-level proficiency) His French is probably a little worse; I don’t think he lived in a French-speaking country as long as he was in Spain. I say that he is “ok” because I have very high standards and don’t say “oh, he’s amazing!” if somebody can only do basic chit-chat.
However, Moses really is not very good, at least in Spanish. He is about a low A2; it disappointed me how bad his grammar, pronunciation, and vocabulary were in the videos I watched. The issue is that he apparently studied it for ~3,4 months but for that investment in the language, his level is considerably lower than what you would see in somebody with intensive, semi-immersion college classes. So, if he supposedly used his FLR technique for Spanish, and his other languages, why was his Spanish so poor for 3-4 months of work? That tells me that:
His method may work but not for him
There is no special trick and it’s just about speaking, writing, listening, and reading as much as you can to improve.
The enthusiasm is good, but I think that it should be tempered with realistic expectations for what you can achieve. If I went to Germany right now and started from scratch, I would probably speak pretty good German after a year. However, let’s not delude ourselves by saying that I could “do everything in German as I can do in English/my native language” or that I am at the level of a native speaker. With Moses, I’m worried about how his level is in the languages that are very different from English if his results in Spanish, a relatively accessible language for Americans, are so disappointing.
I agree with everything you write here. I think some people (like Benny) are far too quick to bandy around claims about being C2 level - in reality there are not all that many people who truly rise to this very high level, IMO.
Level C1 is already very good. I have passed C1 exams in German (and I lived there for over a year) and I can understand 99% when it comes to reading books, newspapers, watching TV, and the like. But being able to function exactly or almost exactly like an educated native in all situations? No way! I agree that one would need 5 years or more of full immersion in order to achieve this. (And just living there wouldn’t cut it either - you would need to be living and working in the language 24/7, probably.)
@J_4_J
Well, the exception will always be Luca, who managed to get 5 C2’s while staying mostly in his home country. Robert, of course, is incredible too, and I think he did most of his learning in Austria.
@Cazasigiloso
Benny used to be big into the C level claims, but he’s really backed off of them since the Mandarin fiasco. I think he’s good at the genre of blog he does: Motivation.
Yes, Luca is amazing. But I’m not convinced that even he has 5 C2 languages?
I would say his English and French are C2 (in the case of French, he has spent 2 or more years living there, I believe?) In his other languages, he may range from B1 to C1? But that is still a very great accomplishment, of course.
I think Luca is really legit, too. However, I definitely wouldn’t say C2. Let’s keep that in perspective; that means that you are pretty much a native speaker. He’s amazing but far from a C2 in English.
In Spanish he’s about a low C1 to medium C1; he doesn’t have any problems expressing himself but he doesn’t have the vocabulary nor speaks as correctly as a native. I’m not trying to insult him; it’s just that he’s spread thin over 8 languages so he can’t just focus on one.
He could work on his Italian but I think he’s a C2.
He is crazy good for somebody that hasn’t lived much abroad! He writes on his blog that he really works on his accent from the start, which, to be fair, may actually make people think that he’s better than he is.
In my biased viewpoint, Luca and that bald British guy are the two best youtube polyglots I’ve seen.
@cazasigiloso- “He’s amazing but far from a C2 in English.”
Far from? What do you think he lacks to have not reached that level? I haven’t followed him that closely, but as far as I’ve seen from him he has outstanding grammar and vocabulary and is probably able to do anything a native speaker like myself can. He does have a slight accent, but is a perfectly native accent required for C2?
C2 is really another way of saying native without being born in the country.
He’s never been abroad, I believe. The chances that he has the vocabulary and grammar of a native speaker is EXTREMELY low. His accent is very good, but assimilating the vocabulary, both denotations and connotations really takes years.
For example, I would highly doubt that he knows words like…shin splints, vulture, frisk, sash, lockgate, sketch, encirclement, smug, nook+cranny …those are words that I just learned recently for Spanish and I’ve most likely spoken a LOT more Spanish than he has English. (And I’m a mere C1 in Spanish) And those are words that any English native speaker will know. He may very well know all the words and slang that a native will know that has lived 20+ years with English…but if I had to bet, I would bet against that.
Maybe so then. In that case, is there anyone who is at a C2 level in two or more foreign languages? That seems like an impossible accomplishment, unless they are old folks who have lived large parts of their lives in each country.
Well, my father is an easy C2 in English; he’s lived in the US for 40+ years. Of course, he was probably at that level after 15 years in the US. (His native tongue is VERY different from English, so it would have taken him 3.5 times longer than if he spoke a language similar to English)
If you speak foreign language X all the time as part of your job and social life, you probably only need 5 years living abroad if the language is close to your native tongue. Multiply that by 2 and it’s only 10 years.
If you want to find people that speak 2 foreign languages at a C2 level, you probably just have to go to Europe, Africa, India, and in some Southeast Asian countries.
Oh, I guess I was thinking in terms of people like Luca who are more or less at-home language learners out of interest. My wife spoke Hakkanese at home, Cantonese in public, Mandarin at school, and learned English since childhood. She’s easily C2 (or just native) in each of those, but I wouldn’t count that the same as someone like Luca who doesn’t have that sort of environment.
I guess you could get a C2 level in a language if you had 6 hours of daily skype talks with natives, but you would have to be VERY dedicated. Also, it’s just not the same if you aren’t in the country, surrounded by the people, culture, and language.
To me, a C2 level means that you can go to a comedy club and understand not only the actual language, but the double meanings, cultural references, dirty jokes, finish the sentences that the comedian doesn’t finish, etc. Also, you would be able to get a full-speed native conversation with several natives speaking at a time, sometimes interrupting each other. That, to me, is extremely difficult to understand. Add slang, and you really do need years to be able to understand it all.
The problem with one on one conversation is that the native will slow down or “dumb-down” their speak so the student can understand them. You’re really not at the “same level” until you live for years abroad.
@Cazasigiloso: “…Also, it’s just not the same if you aren’t in the country, surrounded by the people, culture, and language…”
Yes, I’d have to agree that this is probably true. In fairness, I think the internet has made it easier to tap into a language community without actually living there. Nowadays one can get target language TV, films, music, podcasts, newspapers, audiobooks, ebooks, etc - all pretty much with a single mouse click.
But ultimately there is something psychological going on when you live in a country for an extended period - after a while you kind of “switch over” mentally and start thinking in the language. I think that’s the main reason why it can be annoying if people who don’t you (people in shops, etc) sometimes start speaking in English: it’s not that English native speakers have a problem with speaking English, it’s just that it can feel a little weird to be “pulled out” of one language and into another. (It kind of feels as if you’re being manipulated somehow…it’s difficult to explain…)
The problem with not living abroad is that a lot of times you can’t put words in their context. That is, you don’t really know what is the slang that is currently used and things like the difference between formal and informal words used in advertising. In Spain I saw signs on stores saying, “illévate un X por 20 euros!” which sounds very weird in English if translated directly, but I could understand what it meant based on the context. There are probably better examples, but that was just one.
If you lived in an area with a lot of native speakers like in a border city between the US and Canada (French) or the US and Mexico (Spanish), you can get kind of the same benefit as living abroad.
But to do it by computer, you would have to be extremely motivated; and it would be very rare meeting somebody like that.
I think people underestimate how good C1 and especially C2 are. To be pretty much a native speaker except with a very slight accent or the rare grammatical error made every 20 minutes is extremely hard to reach and really requires, unless you are a one in a million talent, years living in country.
