@ djvlbass - they introduced him saying that he was talking fluently in 20 languages in his YouTube video. They didn’t say he speaks 20 languages fluently. I still think the video was very misleading, as you say.
@keke_eo That’s it! Thanks!
ad Colin: (…) Has he any stuff in German? (…)
As far as I know, he only says a few sentences in one of his videos. Based on his knowledge when I last talked to him (almost a year ago or so I think) in German, I’d say he is an advanced beginner who is very good at using the structures and vocabulary he has learned so far. I don’t think he will be able to bring all his languages up to a very high level of proficiency (I don’t think anybody can do that) but this may not even be his aim.
As for his way of speaking, he speaks quite fast in English too. I can’t say anything about his Arabic, but native speakers left a lot of positive comments on his site. This may have been out of friendliness or because they are honestly impressed, I can’t really tell. I think his Farsi sounds good, again I’m no expert in the language but he appeared to be quite natural when he was talking to that young lady in one of his vids. Even if it was rehearsed I still think it was good.
The entire media hype is doing more harm to the media than to Tim in my opinion. I have always said that I admire his enthusiasm but it is obvious and quite logical to me that he cannot be fluent in all these languages. I have yet to check the latest interview to see what kind of questions they asked and how he responded.
I think he has a core of 5 to 6 strong languages and the rest is probably between A1 and A2. Still impressive, but of course far from being fluent. I don’t know how they do these interviews, if they cut out pieces etc. I know, however, that on another forum he said clearly that he is not fluent in all 20+ languages.
Everybody has to decide for themselves how they rate their knowledge. I’ve been working professionally with languages for about 20 years now and you will never hear me say I’m perfect (or even getting close) in any language. I work hard to provide my clients with the best service and I do believe I offer them good value for their money. But knowing what I know in my working languages and also spending quite a lot of time trying to get to a mere conversational level in a few other languages this entire talk of “being fluent in 15, 20, etc. languages” does not really impress me. I have never heard anybody speak in 20 languages fluently and I am not specifically looking for a person who is able to do that.
I am rather interested in people who are passionate about language learning. As long as they don’t try to make others pay for their supposedly unique “technique, approach” etc. I have no problem with (self-)proclaimed geniuses. Almost every day we meet people who overestimate or underestimate their own capabilities. Journalists preparing an article on language learning should at least have some knowledge in the field. If they keep repeating the same stuff because it is a “nice story” they are the ones to blame.
As I said before, I have not yet seen the latest video but if I were Tim I’d probably tell them that I don’t speak all these languages (fluently) but that I am studying them. And who would not be impressed by a young boy dedicating so much time to serious language studying? All the rest to me is just hot air and unfortunately quite representative of the quality of the average media reports.
P.S. Ok, I’ve just watched the video. My goodness, those reporters have no clue whatsoever 
“Teenage interpreter” was one of the headlines they used. They obviously have no idea what they are talking about.
I must say, however, that I think Tim did just fine in that interview. He never said he is fluent in all of these languages, he talked about studying them and they also showed a short clip where he said that he “does not know much” in one of South Africa’s indigenous languages he was studying then.
This is the type of show, some sort of “morning programme” I guess, where they probably talk more about the dietary habits of the Royal Family than anything else and it definitely is not the best setting for a serious discussion on language learning. But, again, I think Tim did fine.
@CPJ
The woman said “17 year old Tim Doner has appeared on youtube talking fluently in 20 languages” I suppose interpretation is up to the listener. I’m just worried that the average listener does not know better ;/
@Robert
If Tim can survive this insane amount of media attention without getting a big head then I REALLY have to commend him. He seems like a nice guy and I would love to meet him in person.
ad djvlbass: He seems like a nice guy and I would love to meet him in person.
I met him last year in New York and we had a great time together. He is a very friendly and interesting person.
@lovelanguagesll Did you speak to him in German in person or via chat? Remember, there have been instances of people using machine translation to feign FL knowledge.
He may be a nice guy, but he is not exactly turning down these interviews.
“We want to interview you on TV about how you speak 20 languages fluently.”
“Well, actually I only speak three at an intermediate level and I have very basic knowledge in 17 others.”
“Ok then, goodbye.”
From what I can see (and I have not done a huge amount of research), he is being dishonest in the way that he claims to speak 20 languages and then lets people think that this means that he speaks them all fluently, but he is 17 years old let us not forget. I really don’t think this says much about his character other than that he is 17 years old. Why wouldn’t he let people think that he speaks them all fluently? I certainly would have when i was that age. Robert (lovelanguagesII) is correct that this is more the fault of the media than the fault of him.
@polyglot2
There is surely no way on earth that machine translation would fool Robert!?
Hindi is reportedly not that hard a language for English speakers to learn. Still, a “few weeks” sounds like a stretch at best. Also, the level of proficiency that is required in order to “know” a language is very subjective. Certainly some people are better at multilingualism than others - probably due to favorable factors such as a penchant for enjoying the learning process. Nevertheless, the human mind is generally hardwired for language-learning, and I believe almost anyone can learn as many different tongues as they darn well please. I certainly call crap on the idea that most are limited to a small number of languages; the human brain has an amazing and underrated capacity to store and use information. I’d call Tim very self-disciplined, or perhaps living in very conducive circumstances, rather than apply that largely meaningless term “genius.” Good for him, in any case. His array of known languages is extremely impressive.
ad polylgot2: (…) Did you speak to him in German in person or via chat? (…)
I spoke to him via video chat and in person during my stay in New York. I know what kind of “translation” most machine translations result in and what Tim said during our conversations was in no way similar to that. I have no idea about his current level of German but when I talked to him he was at a good beginner level. People sometimes think you need to be at a B2 or even higher level to have a conversation. That is just not true - at least not according to my own experience. A solid A2 level will give you all the grammar knowledge you need to form comprehensible sentences. The rest is just vocabulary learning and listening practice. If you listen a lot, you’ll get used to the sounds of the language and you will automatically tune your ear to the new language. As a consequence, comprehension will become easier even if you don’t understand every single word in a conversation. There is a lot you can derive from the context.
Besides, please don’t forget that I am not out there to “expose” an alleged fraud, I am a language partner and hopefully an encouraging and helpful one. As such I offer advice, give support and correct people if they ask me to do so. I do not try to make them feel bad for mistakes they make (which I consider to be an essential part in any learning process anyway) but encourage them to speak. This allows for a relaxed atmosphere where people can thrive on what they have learnt instead of having to fear that I will look down upon them for not speaking correctly (all the time) or not understanding what I say.
Based on this attitude, Tim and I managed to have a conversation lasting between 30 and 45 minutes (I don’t recall the exact time anymore) entirely in German on several subjects ranging from language learning, to social phenomena such as racism etc., his future plans and so on and so forth. Yes, of course, he lacked certain words and I helped him out. That is what a language partner is there for. As a rule, he was trying to explain what he wanted to say in German first and only if he was unsure whether he’d get the exact meaning across he’d ask me in English (or in many cases in another language we both speak such as French for example) how to say certain things in German.
As for your example conversation with a journalist calling Tim and asking him about an interview, I can readily imagine a conversation like this having actually been held, except for the fact that the journalist probably would have never hung up and said “Ok then, goodbye”. He probably would have steered the interview into the direction he seems to be fit for his own purpose. I mean, let’s face it, this happens with seasoned politicians and people expect a 17-year old who obviously (and justly so) enjoys the attention he gets to not fall for certain traps?
I have yet to see a video where he boasts to be an “I-know-it-all” or where he actually says that he is fluent in all of these languages. Anybody speaking any of the languages he practises in his videos will be able to form an informed opinion on the basis of what they hear and/or see and others most likely will be encouraged and motivated.
The fact that reporters try to fill their programme schedule with some ridiculous claims does not make Tim any less impressive and motivating in my opinion. It is not his task either to constantly rectify things other people say about him. In the last interview he did not say “Listen, you got it all wrong, I am not talking in them fluently” but he clearly said that he is studying the languages and studying to me means making mistakes and embarking upon a journey of hard work (with hopefully enjoyable and useful results). Some parts of the interviews are obviously staged such as the question about the Persian poem. But I don’t think people are not aware of this. I have interpreted at enough press conferences and during interviews to know that most questions (and answers for that matter) are fixed beforehand (this is not always the case but it happens quite often).
So, no, Tim is no fraud to me, but no supernatural being either. He is a very dedicated,hard-working, obviously talented young man who thankfully puts learning languages before a lot of other things quite a few kids his age seem to prefer (and things were no different when we were kids I guess).
ad Colin: (…) From what I can see (and I have not done a huge amount of research), he is being dishonest in the way that he claims to speak 20 languages and then lets people think that this means that he speaks them all fluently, but he is 17 years old let us not forget. (…)
I certainly would act differently if they asked me now for an interview, I am not sure how I would have acted when I was his age. I was quite naive (some people say I still am ;-)). And I would not say I speak 20 languages either but the definition of “speaking” is up for interpretation I guess. And, yes, let us not forget his young age.
@Robert
Tim is definetly most talented in his ability to make even a small vocabulary useful in communication. His flow in his better languages is great. I would question his ability to completely understand rapid speech among natives in certain of his better languages, but he definetly seems to know how to take the words he is able to hear and make them work for him in the context.
This recent New York Daily News article offers a more balanced view and realistic comments from Tim. I like the phrases: “he has an arsenal of 20 languages”, “this is common in many parts of the world” and “speaking… at varying levels of proficiency.” The article is very careful to say that he has “studied” or is “studying” 20 languages rather than most articles that use the finite word “learned” (except for the unfortunate headline of course).
If he majors in translation, he’ll only be able to use a maximum of five languages. Any more than that and people simply will not take you seriously. Some companies refuse to hire anyone who knows more than two because they believe you have spread yourself too thin.
Nevertheless, it will be interesting to see how old he has to get before this story is no longer “newsworthy”.
That article is great. Who knows - maybe the journalist did some research on google and came across a thread on lingq that helped him to put Tim Doner’s ability into perspective?
Also, I had no idea about those rules regarding translation. Isn’t there that Greek guy who works for the EU who has something around a dozen working languages?
According to this article (How Many Languages Is It Possible to Speak): How Many Languages is it Possible to Know? | Mental Floss
Alexander Arguelles said “If someone tells you how many languages they speak, then you shouldn’t trust them.”
There is also this great tidbit:
“… most of the hyperpolyglots themselves were reluctant to claim too many, even when they had studied dozens. This is because they have a finer definition of “knowing” a language than most people, and the humility that comes from becoming an expert: The more you know, the more you know what you don’t know. Among the hyperpolyglots, 15 seems to be about the high end when it comes to the number of languages they are willing to vouch for in themselves.”
Another good blog post (from Alex Rawlings): Who Can Learn Languages? 伟德直营_伟德国际始于英国
“…It is frustrating when people uphold multilingualism as something extraordinary, equate ‘polyglots’ with hyperintelligence, or…”
ad polyglot2: (…) This recent New York Daily News article offers a more balanced view and realistic comments from Tim. (…)
This is about the best article I read about him.
(…) If he majors in translation, he’ll only be able to use a maximum of five languages. Any more than that and people simply will not take you seriously. Some companies refuse to hire anyone who knows more than two because they believe you have spread yourself too thin (…)
I think it depends on what you want to do but there certainly is a limit to what you can do while still offering reasonable quality for your clients. The market undoubtedly is not as forgiving as some news reporters or language teachers may be.
I work in five languages but I do not cover the same range of topics in all of them. I only translate from the foreign language into German, except for English where I have teamed up with native speakers who proofread my translations into English. Besides, I have specialized in legal translations even though I venture into other realms from time to time as well. While I accept assignments from various areas, I will always turn down a job offer if I feel I’m not up to it (that happens mostly with technical topics). I’d only harm myself if I handed in a poorly done job. So, yes, you need to know your limits.
As for the working situations you’ll encounter, the situation is different with interpreting where you will always be expected to work in both directions. I would not want to sit next to someone in my booth who only works from German into English. What if there are 6 presentations into German and only one into English? Am I then supposed to do all the work by myself? It just does not work this way, not on the free market.
The EU has that rather weird rule that they only allow you to interpret into your mother tongue ( they don’t really care about that rule if they sponsor a conference in your home country and are quite willing to go with the rules of the free market then. This is also about the money because if they followed their “EU rule”, costs would explode since you would have to hire two interpreters for each language pair which would easily double or triple costs depending on the number of languages used. While EU institutions may be able to afford this, the private market usually is not).
I don’t share their opinion that you work best when you work into your mother tongue. The essential thing is to understand what the speaker says and the biggest mistakes I heard were mistakes because the interpreter did not understand the original. You might not sound as elegant as a native speaker when you work into a foreign language, but I am confident that an experienced interpreter will find a way to get the message across IF he understood the original.
I have never heard of any company that has not hired someone because they know “too many” languages. The final customer usually just relies on your academic credentials and/or word of mouth. If you have a degree in 10 languages (which I have not heard of either, though), you are very likely to be taken seriously, at least in most European countries.
I have met colleagues who work in one language and struggled just as much sometimes as colleagues working in 3 or 4. But I do agree that there definitely is a limit to the number of languages you can work with professionally. I don’t know if it is 5 though. This will largely depend on your group of languages.
I readily admit that in my case, three out of my 5 working languages being Romance languages and the two other Germanic languages, the situation is quite different from somebody who’d work in let’s say Mandarin, Russian, Hungarian, Arabic and Xhosa. He/she would be working with the same number of languages but would probably have had to spend much more time to acquire and maintain proficiency in all of these languages.
While I keep studying languages for pleasure, I don’t intend to add any more working languages (with the exception of Portuguese maybe one day - for obvious reasons ;-).
ad djvlbass (…) Also, I had no idea about those rules regarding translation. Isn’t there that Greek guy who works for the EU who has something around a dozen working languages? (…)
There is no such rule. If you want to work for the EU, either as an interpreter or a translator, you will have to take specific tests. Before you are even admitted to those tests you will have to provide them with your academic credentials. If you pass the test, you are in, no matter if it is your second or your fifteenth language.
As for interpreters, you will be required to work in at least (!) 3 languages anyway (best would be 4 or 5) if you work in the more common languages (like my working languages). With German and English alone, you won’t get many jobs. This is a thing of the past where people managed to get into international organizations with one or two languages at the most. The situation may be slightly different with the UN, but if you want to work for the EU you must be really multilingual (unless you work as an expert in another area such as a legal expert, medical expert; in these cases both English and French are still a must, in addition to your mother tongue in case it is neither English nor French). There are cases, however, where even one language might be enough. I have heard they have many problems finding enough interpreters for Maltese for example. So, if you manage to interpret simultaneously from and into Maltese, you might be getting in just with that one language (and English of course, there is no way you’d be accepted without knowing English at a professional level).
As polylgot2 said, you can’t really be a master in all trades, you will have to try and focus either on a certain number of languages or on specific topics. Some people work in two languages only, but cover a wide range of topics. Others, such as me, prefer to work in several languages but limit the number of fields they work in. I cover more fields in interpreting than in translation though for the simple reason that a translation of written documents often requires a much more in-depth knowledge of the topic at hand than interpreting where people tend to speak more freely. Besides, they have a limited amount of time available for their presentations so they won’t deal with every aspect in the utmost detail. It is also easier to prepare for a 40-minute presentation (even if it is not your field of specialty) than to translate a 100-page technical manual.
At least that’s what I think.
P.S. Also, the more you understand, the more you realize how little you actually know.
@ Robert - Interesting post! Just as an aside, I was bored the other day and so I tried a couple of minutes of simultaneous interpretation from some simple German into English. It was a complete disaster, and I spent most of the time laughing. I would be surprised if I got 5% correct.
Should this polyglot (his name is Nelson) shorten his list to 65 languages? Have you ever shortened your “list”?
Also, his video “The Worst Question You Can Ask a Polyglot” is pretty interesting - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kqRl79NgFI
ad polyglot2 (…) Have you ever shortened your “list”? (…)
I try to do that constantly but I find it quite hard. The thing is that I love studying a language in-depth because it helps you to really explore a language. On the other hand, I also like the feeling of embarking upon a new journey with every new language I learn.
At the beginning of this year I promised myself to only add one more language, and that is Portuguese (to the 9 languages I have studied so far). Obviously, I cannot really be trusted because since then I have bought courses for 12 more languages
Even though there are a few more languages that have caught my interest, I guess I will stick to these 22 languages. I am very much aware of the fact that I won’t get very far in many of them. I don’t have any real plan except for the fact that I intend to thoroughly enjoy my journey. Basically, I think that I should be able to keep a professional level in 5 languages and reach an A2 or B1 level in the others (over a long period of time, meaning years and not weeks nor months). I’ll be very busy over the next 20 or 30 years, I guess
@lovelanguagesII “Obviously, I cannot really be trusted because since then I have bought courses for 12 more languages ;-)”
I should think that quite a few of us share this particular character flaw!
I had that same problem, but I sold around 500 foreign language books (textbooks and novels) on e-bay and donated another 1,500 books to charity. I kept only the books for the languages I want to learn. I currently have 1,800 books for 14 languages, including just about every textbook that exists for Arabic, Japanese and Russian.
I was thinking about making a list of all the books I have and offering to answer people’s questions about them (so that they could make an informed purchasing decision), but then I thought, who cares?