Who are "conservatives"? Who are "liberals"?

Many people in the US think that the antonym of “conservative” is “liberal”. I think that this dichotomy is strange.

I think that if “conservative” means trying to preserve or protect something, its antonym should mean “changing” something. On the other hand, what is the antonym of “liberal”? If it means freedom of something, its antonym should mean “restriction” or “ban” of something.

Conservatives are liberals, and liberals are conservatives.

Environmental protection, gun control, …
I think that people who call themselves “conservative” in the US tend to want more climate “change” and looser “restrictions” on selling guns.
I don’t think they are entitled to be called “conservatives”.

I think “liberal” has a particular meaning is a US political context, doesn’t it?

How d’you like my new hat? It’s fresh from the Trump Store in New York - literally! :smiley:

(Don’t worry - I wear it in a very Post Modernist and self-referential kind of way…)

Some scholars think that both the US and the state which existed for a while under the name “USSR” are two exceptional, “experimental” states in world history. I don’t know if this is true or not. I wonder if people who have been living on the soil of the US, which accepted floods of immigrants from England, Ireland, Italy, Germany … almost every part of the world, are “subjects” of the historical socal experiment.

Yes In the old days of England the term liberal was actually more conservative in the sense of being “liberated” from the big government rules and regulations.

It all depends on the spectrum of the country you are in.

These words have different modern meanings in different countries. Although historical definitions are fairly clear.

If you are talking about classic liberalism then yes, conservatives are more liberal than modern liberals(in the U.S.). But this is not true especially when individual liberties might conflict with religion.

The most liberal group in the U.S. is going to be those who view themselves as a “libertarian”, but in other countries “libertarian” means “anarchist”. So depending on who you are talking to a “libertarian” is also a “classical liberal”.

Modern names don’t often represent the correct ideology either because of a unique history of the group of people or a change in name to remove the stigma of the old name.

“I think that people who call themselves “conservative” in the US tend to want more climate “change” and looser “restriction” on selling guns.”

I thought our conservatives in America were partly represented by the coal miners who wanted to keep their coal mining jobs and thus become inadvertently against the existence of climate change? :stuck_out_tongue:

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I imagine that many people cannot understand PrinzCuck’s profound “post-modernist, self-referential” humor. I am one of them. Actually, I tend to believe in “absurdism”.

“The absurdist philosopher Albert Camus stated that individuals should embrace the absurd condition of human existence while also defiantly continuing to explore and search for meaning.”–Wikipedia
I cannot remember if I have read his works.

If one were to take observations from modern day events, the whole definition of conservative and liberal are really muddled. Conservatives are liberals, and liberals are conservative.

Kimojima wrote:
“We come from Puritan, hard-working roots. That’s what conservatives emulate.”

  1. Does “we” refer to self-proclaimed “conservatives” in the US? Or, does it refer to all the people who live in the United States of America?

  2. Does that “emulation” reject secularism, for example, “no discrimination against anybody in the name of religion”?

  3. Do you think Donald Trump is a champion of “puritanism-emulating” conservatism?

Hands Up!! Who Here Is A Liberal?!?

“Most conservative proposals bear a resemblance to Obamacare, but with more costs shifted to consumers and fewer people covered.
One repeal bill passed by House Republicans last year - and vetoed by President Obama - would have eliminated the individual mandate.
Most Republican plans call for preserving - in some form - Obamacare’s ban on insurers denying coverage for pre-existing conditions.
Other ideas call for partially privatising Medicare, the government healthcare scheme for the elderly, or stripping funding from Planned Parenthood, the family planning group that provides abortions.”

Does “puritanism-emulating” conservatism make sense in the above context?
Do conservatives reject the role of “social” insurance systems and “universal” health care systems in modern, industrialized society?
Are they worrying only about abortins?

“…I imagine that many people cannot understand PrinzCuck’s profound “post-modernist, self-referential” humor. I am one of them…”

Weißt du, Yutaka, ich habe das Gefühl, du bist, was den britischen Humor (oder auch den Humor ganz allgemein) anbetrifft, wirklich nicht mehr zu retten! :stuck_out_tongue:

(But don’t worry - I lived in Germany, so I know that some people out there are genuinely puzzled by the thought of not taking life 100% seriously…)

The opposite of conservative is regressive or progressive. Conservative is the middle ground between progressive and regressive. If the left could demonstrate more progression and less regression, it would do a lot better.

Most conservatives view the left as the regressive left. Liberal often means “open to new ideas”. Could be progressive, could be regressive. Again, most conservatives view liberal new ideas as being regressive.

It is up to the left to prove itself. Not conservative politics.

“The opposite of conservative is regressive or progressive. Conservative is the middle ground between progressive and regressive.”

If there were one scale that measures progressiveness or regressiveness, the central point might be “no change”. The problem here is how you can measure progressiveness or regressiveness objectively. For example, I have heard that husbands and wives in China have a different surname from their spouse. Can this be seen as progressive, regressive, or conservative?

“If the left could demonstrate more progression and less regression, it would do a lot better.”

I cannot understand what you are contending.
According to my dictionary, “the Left” means “a group or party favouring radical, reforming, or socialist views”(ODE). I imagine that the left-right dichotomy originally comes from the seating arrangement in Parliament. “The terms ‘left’ and ‘right’ appeared during the French Revolution of 1789 when members of the National Assembly divided into supporters of the king to the president’s right and supporters of the revolution to his left.”–Wikipedia

“Most conservatives view the left as the regressive left.”

I imagine that in Mainland China, “the Left” means Maoism or something like that. In Russia does it mean Leninism or Stalinism? Or are Leninism and Stalinsm considered “right-wing” ideologies in Russia now? I don’t know if they are progressive or regressive, even though I know they are oppressive.

“It is up to the left to prove itself. Not conservative politics.”

Again, I cannot understand what you are contending here. What does “the left” refer to? What does “conservative politics” mean?

Do conservatives in the UK reject the role of “social” insurance systems and “universal” health care systems? I don’t think so. I think that conservatives in the US tend to be “regressive” on this point. I wonder if Iaing comes from the US. If Iaing is living in Australia, I would like to know what the situation in that country is like.

“We should begin with the assumption that nothing Trump says can be taken at face value; the ‘plan’ that he claims is being devised could be no more real than the secret plan to defeat the Islamic State he used to claim that he had formulated. But that’s not the point. What matters is this: Donald Trump just emphatically promised universal health coverage. That’s an absolutely gigantic promise, and it’s one that Republicans have no intention of keeping.”
‪Donald Trump may have just destroyed the Republican effort to repeal Obamacare http://wapo.st/2jo3zle?tid=ss_tw‬

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This is completely true. The one thing that this, hopefully, is not forgotten by the public and he is held accountable. The problem is he lives in his own la la land when criticisms and hypocrisies are rebutted by his own fantasies as we see on twitter so when it doesn’t work, as will almost of none of his promises, he is likely to scapegoat immigrants or the republicans or whoever.

If this causes a glorious rift between the republican party and the oval office I will be a happy man. These establishment republicans have to go. American will not stand for their nonsense anymore.

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“Liberals are those who believe in institutions that limit inequality and injustice.”
“You’re a liberal, whether you know it or not, if you believe that the United States should have universal health care.”
“The Conscience of a Liberal” by Paul Krugman, p.268.

If the criteria is only related to the recognition of universal health care, almost all people in Japan are liberals, including the “right-wing” prime minister.

Believe it or not, the name of his party is “the Liberal Democratic Party,” and he wants to have a friendly relationship with Putin as well as Trump. (We want “friendly” relations with Russia, but I don’t want our prime minister to be influenced by the narcissistic, dictatorial “Trumputism.”)

“While repealing the president’s signature health-care law has been a central goal of the conservative movement for the past six years, many of the Americans who helped vote Trump into office benefit from federal health programs and the subsidies that flow from the law.”
Pressure mounts on GOP for post-Obamacare plan following CBO report http://wpo.st/ocRS2

I wonder why repealing the health-care law has been the central goal of the “conservative” movement,