学習者と先生のために日本語の高低アクセントについてのビデオを作りました！出来れば、コメントを投稿してください。
I just created a video on Japanese Pitch Accent for learners and teachers of Japanese.
I look forward to the next video. This video is extremely well done.
I am curious to find out how to identify the pitch of words. I am inclined to just imitate what I hear, and think that trying to learn the specific pitch pattern for each word we encounter in the language would be a daunting task.
Well, you’re lucky Steve, because finding the pitch of words is the topic of my next video 
I’m still putting the final touches on the script.
It is a daunting task, but then again, so is learning the gender of words. That’s why I think dealing with it from the start is much more efficient than relearning it afterwards.
I really enjoyed the video. I wish some of the beginner material I’ve gone through would have brought this up. I definitely look forward to the next video.
Thanks for the video. I am still mulling it over. Did you work this out for yourself or is there a published source?
dooo, a mixture of both. There is some scattered info online, and some research, but as far as I know, there is no all-inclusive source of information for non-natives. That’s why I also created a page (mentioned under the video), although it’s still rather incomplete.
What are you mulling over, exactly?
As a companion to the first video, I recommend the Scalar and Binary Pitch sections of the Wikipedia Article
What I am mulling over? Other than getting a grasp on the content itself, I am wondering to what extent this is useful. Do most learners who have ignored this but lived and studied hard in Japan have a noticeably foreign accent as a result? Even if they do, what is the extrinsic benefit of sounding like a native? Especially as an obviously non Japanese person?
“Do most learners who have ignored this but lived and studied hard in Japan have a noticeably foreign accent as a result?”
Yes. The answer is a resounding yes.
“Even if they do, what is the extrinsic benefit of sounding like a native?”
That is a question for each to answer. Personally, I care about my pronunciation, just as I did when learning English. However, I realize most people don’t. And that’s ok.
My stance is that understanding pitch accent alone will allow learners to notice, effortlessly, things that can make their pronunciation better, whether or not they care about sounding native-like or about their pronunciation in general. What’s there to lose?
Thanks for your answers.
"“Do most learners who have ignored this but lived and studied hard in Japan have a noticeably foreign accent as a result?”
Yes. The answer is a resounding yes."
Sorry for sounding like a lawyer but I would like to know your source for the “yes”. I have very close ties to Japan and do not remember hearing this.
Also, while I am sure there are some people for which this is an end in itself, I think I am on safe ground when saying the extrinsic, or objective, benefits of sounding very “native-like” for those who are obviously foreigners are very few.
“Sorry for sounding like a lawyer but I would like to know your source for the “yes”. I have very close ties to Japan and do not remember hearing this.”
Well, there are native speakers on this forum – why not let them answer?
I learned about pitch accent while studying linguistics (before studying Japanese), so I don’t know what it’s like to study Japanese without knowing about it. That being said, one of the first books I got was Colloquial Japanese, and it did an excellent job of explaining pitch accent and it gave some excellent advice. Since the vast majority of words (in the standard Tokyo accent) begin on a low-high pattern and are essentially accentless, just try to speak with an even tone and it’ll sound just fine. This is because, as was said, the low-high thing mostly applies at the beginning of utterances, not every word, so unless you meet a word with an accent in the middle, speaking is going to sound fairly flat. Indeed, Japanese people themselves will talk about Tokyo Japanese having a “flat” accent. Also, my first dictionary listed the pitch accent of words, and that was very helpful - the Kenkyusha Learner’s Dictionary (electronic version).
It’s called the Initial Lowering Rule (IIRC), and it means that words in Tokyo Japanese have a low tone on the first mora unless that mora receives the accent. This is not standard all across Japan. Pitch accent varies tremendously across Japan, and is one of the main markers of where someone comes from. In Kyoto, if I recall correctly (and I could be wrong), words generally begin on a high-low pattern, the opposite of Tokyo. But definitely not all accents of Japanese follow the Initial Lowering Rule.
NHK publishes a pronouncing dictionary for pitch accent which contains what is considered the standard pitch accent. If someone were really concerned about pitch accent, they could just try and memorize some of the most common words that have an accent in the middle or at the end. In standard Japanese, I believe 90% of words are considered accentless - meaning that they begin L-H according to the Initial Lowering Rule, and then don’t have any subsequent accents.
I think it’s good to be aware of this because it exists. If we know about it, we can listen for it, and we can also try to memorize some of the common words that are accented. Nevertheless, probably the most important thing is to try and speak with a level tone and to pronounce each syllable of equal length. For English speakers, we have to focus on not transferring English stress patterns to Japanese.
One other point that needs to be made is that if a person moves somewhere in Japan outside Tokyo, all this gets thrown out the window as you’ll hear a non-standard pitch pattern. Indeed the hashi (chopsticks) and hashi (bridge) difference that was given in this example is not the same in the Kansai region.
I have spoken Japanese for forty years without knowing anything about pitch. I think my pronunciation of Japanese is more than adequate. I know many fluent non-native speakers of Japanese, many of whom have excellent pronunciation. I do not know if they are aware of pitch but I tend to doubt it. I asked two Japanese speakers in our office about pitch, one native, and they were unaware of it. I think most people just imitate what they hear. Some people imitate better than others.
I am waiting to see the next videos. I wonder, however, if introducing this concept helps learners, or makes them more hesitant to speak. It was only when I read that Cantonese had 6 tones instead of 9, that I decided to learn it. There is value in keeping things simple.
In Russian there is a great deal of fuss made about palatalized consonants and how to pronounce them. I ignore this kind of instruction and focus on listening a lot and eventually repeating what I hear. I tend to find that pronunciation, and even language learning itself, is a holistic endeavour. It kind of all comes together. Focusing on the bits and pieces can be helpful, but should not become an obsession, in my view.
Still I await the next videos to see what I can learn.
“My stance is that understanding pitch accent alone will allow learners to notice, effortlessly, things that can make their pronunciation better, whether or not they care about sounding native-like or about their pronunciation in general. What’s there to lose?”
This is spot on. Some people may notice pitch accent without having it explained to them, but others won’t - it’ll just go over their heads and they’ll never hear it. If it’s explained to them, they may be able to notice it, and therefore learn from it.
I question the following statement.
“Do most learners who have ignored this but lived and studied hard in Japan have a noticeably foreign accent as a result?”
Yes. The answer is a resounding yes.
"I do not know if they are aware of pitch but I tend to doubt it. I asked two Japanese speakers in our office about pitch, one native, and they were unaware of it. I think most people just imitate what they hear. Some people imitate better than others. "
I really find this hard to believe. If you ask them about accent, they must know. Everybody knows that there is a standard accent used on NHK. When Japanese people (from the countryside, for example) say that their Japanese is 訛ってる, pitch accent (although they don’t call it that) is a big part of what they’re talking about. There’s something being lost in translation when you’re asking them that question.
“I am waiting to see the next videos. I wonder, however, if introducing this concept helps learners, or makes them more hesitant to speak”
I agree there’s a danger of this. One reason I initially went to Japan instead of Taiwan was because I was scared off of Chinese by the idea of tones. Pitch accent may scare some people. That’s why I really like the super simple explanation and advice given in Colloquial Japanese. Speak evenly and with a level tone.
I agree with Bortrun – when you give native speakers an example of pitch, they all know what it is – 高低アクセント. Pitch is the biggest difference between regional accents and there is no way a foreigner could sound non-foreign without correct pitch.
As for the danger of becoming overly obsessed – I’m aware of this and I’m trying to make the videos in a way that simply provides the info for those who are curious or care to know.
doo – just in case, when you asked
“Do most learners who have ignored this but lived and studied hard in Japan have a noticeably foreign accent as a result?”,
did you mean to imply that ignoring pitch has not prevented students from learning correct pronunciation or are you asking if speaking with incorrect pitch sounds foreign?
This is a great discussion for our forum so thanks for starting it Alexandre, and I look forward to the next videos as I said.
There is intonation in every language. I guess the question is whether a self-conscious effort to learn the pitch accent of every word is all that crucial to good pronunciation. I doubt whether people deliberately study pitch or not is the deciding factor in how close to native their pronunciation is. Some people hear the name “Kinoshita” and say “kinosheeta”, no matter how often they hear it. Others say “kinosh’ta” right away. I think our ability to notice what we hear and to imitate it is a bigger factor than the deliberate study of pitch.
However, if this helps some people to notice, then it is a good thing. I am curious to find out, Alexandre, how you teach this. Does the learner have to learn pitch for every new word, like gender for nouns in French?
Steve, to my knowledge, if a learner has every Japanese sound down to a T and pitch is off, it will sound foreign. Note also that this isn’t intonation per se – the pitch is encoded in the word, much like stress in English.
As for how to teach it, it’s an excellent question. The only case I’ve heard of in Canada where this is taught is Professor Ota at York University in Toronto, and he told me they only teach the general system in the beginning (you can see his videos online) – however, he’s adamant it’s important to teach it and he’s also commented that they usually get compliments about their students’ pronunciation when they enter speech contests.
My opinion is that teaching how the system works is the first step. Then, you teach students how to become independent in looking for the pitch themselves. Finally, you teach students how to predict changes (such as how taBEru become taBEMAsu, TAbete, TAbeta, etc.). And that is how I structured my videos.
If a class presented vocabulary and always indicated pitch (with lines or bold for accented kana), then students would inevitably learn some of them. Even if they forgot most, they’d still be better off then if it wasn’t indicated at all. The point again being that showing it and teaching it will, on its own, allow for improvement, even if you put no particular emphasis on it.
“did you mean to imply that ignoring pitch has not prevented students from learning correct pronunciation or are you asking if speaking with incorrect pitch sounds foreign?”
I wanted to know if the average (i.e. unaware of pitch rules in Japanese) highly fluent foreigner in Japan is producing misaccented Japanese.