The Subtitle Fallacy -- Why target language subtitles are not your friends

Open Forum
1

Ok, so in response to various posts and sub-posts on this forum, I decided to do some further experimentation with subtitles and I’ve come to the conclusion that watching TV shows and movies in your target language, WITH the target languages subtitles, is actually LESS beneficial than watching them with the subtitles in your native language. This may sound counterintuitive to some, but the approach of “real language learners watch with target language subtitles” turns out to be a bit of a fallacy in my opinion. (With some caveats with I’ll get into below.) TV shows are not audiobooks and trying to treat them as such doesn’t quite work.

What I’m talking about here is casual tv watching in a foreign language as a supplementary activity to your langue studies – which of course is very beneficial. About 75% of TV I watch nowadays is either dubbed Netflix shows in French and German, or actual foreign shows. I’ve been doing this mostly with the English subtitles on, but because of the fallacy described above, I switched to target language subs for a while, trying to be a badass. What I’ve noticed is not only did I understand less of the show but I’ve spent a hell of a lot more time with my eyes on the target language subs than with the English subs, hindering my listening comprehension in the process.

Three factors play into this, I think:
1.) Professional subs never completely match the spoken lines for various reasons; allotted time, allowed character count, often different translators etc. But that means that if you don’t understand a spoken line, you’ll often be even more confused by its none matching written companion because your brain is now trying to decipher two foreign language sentences at the same time, leading to many potential overloads.
2.) Reading and comprehending a line of text in your native language is a hell of a lot faster and uses a much smaller fraction of your brain to accomplish. So your attention actually has more bandwidth dedicated to listening to the spoken language when the subs are in your native language.
3.) Because of all that, when the subs are in your native language, it’s a lot easier, and more natural to get into a habit of only looking down at the subs when you don’t understand something right away – or when you just need that one unknown word to make sense of something, because your eye can pick apart a written sentence in your own language a lot faster.

Overall, your native subs will teach you more words as well, since they’re providing a quick translation to words you may not understand, rather than just providing a written version of an unknown word.

Someone might make the counter-argument that target language subs may force you to eventually read faster in your studied language, but I would argue that that misses the point. Movies and TV shows are an audiovisual medium and are meant to be enjoyed and understood “in the moment,” unlike books which are a written medium with no built-in time mechanism or pacing imperative. I think subtitles are there to assist with listening comprehension while keeping you with the pace of the show as much as possible. And for us, the point of watching TV is not to become speed readers, but to increase listening comprehension and ultimately to move away from subtitles at some point and enjoy the show as it was meant to be enjoyed. And for that, it’s actually a lot easier to gradually wean yourself off of subtitles by leaving them on native and glancing down less and less as you understand more and more of the spoken language.

When to actually turn off the subs altogether and simulate an “in country” experience is up to the individual, but I’d say I’ll turn mine off once I’ve only looked down once or twice per hour – something like that. I’d rather have them on and not need them though, somehow that feels more triumphant.

Two exceptions to this: 1.) When only the target language sub is available, such as on the various German TV apps for Das Erste and ZDF, I’ll use the German subs on those, because it still helps with clarifying stuff, but I end up doing a lot more pausing and reading. And 2.) If you’re actually using the target subs as an active study method, either by themselves or by loading them into LingQ etc. That’s a different story of course. (Though I think books are a lot better suited for that sort of thing. Reading is for reading, TV is for watching and listening.)

So, ultimately, I would encourage everyone to free yourselves of “subtitle guilt” and use your native subs as often and as long as you like, and you’ll notice needing them less and less.

11 Likes
2

Your points are spot on, imo.

Enjoy TV guilt free, with as much aid as you feel you need. Often, an accurate on the fly translation in your native TL is much, much, much better than “blanking out” on both the listening and reading components.

Totally agree with any sentiment along the lines of - if you want to do active listening with transcripts - then a medium without visuals (such as: books, native podcasts, chat radio) are better options for learning.

Even when you have video/TV transcripts it is still not a great learning option, imo – as the dialogue is far too spread out and “clunky” when compared to something like native podcasts with transcripts.

Audiobooks, and chat radio/podcasts with transcripts, are the gold standard mediums for language learning, imo. Native TV and movies are just the C1+ level rewards.

2 Likes
3

I feel that when I have subtitles on, I can understand everything that is being said, but then when I turn them off, I don’t understand more than 20 percent. I think it has quite a lot to do with volume. I would claim that I understand English almost perfectly. I don’t have a problem hearing something in English, understanding it and even repeating it out loud. At the same time, I still use English subtitles when I watch stuff because if I don’t hear something then I look at the subtitles and I can see what was being said. I even use subtitles in my native language sometimes. Movies are a disaster to me. I can barely hear anything said in them. People whisper, mumble their words, talk under their noses, it’s just terrible. When I speak with people face to face I understand everything. When I listen to the radio or a random Youtube video where the speaker is LOUD, I understand everything. But I can barely catch anything when I watch TV shows or movies because I can’t hear anything. I know that it also has to do with language skills themselves because even though people mumble in English too, I generally understand what they are saying, but how does one get used to such distorted speech as presented in movies and TV shows? As to the split-attention thingy, about having to comprehend two inputs separately, I haven’t had that problem at all. I hear the spoken input and I process the subtitles and I can notice the differences between them without being confused. Also, I am pretty sure that I’m not hearing impaired.

2 Likes
4

This is actually very normal. Watching movies, unassisted, without any subtitles, is the hardest thing to do in a foreign language, and is often the last frontier to conquer in language learning. It has nothing to do with volume. It has more to do with the medium itself. Movie dialog is not only native level, but it’s faster, more colloquial, and more slang-ridden than any other form or content you’ll encounter. It is meant to be not just “lifelike” but “larger than lifelike.” You’ll need a large vocab and a LOT of listening and reading before you can fully understand the average movie without subtitles. Chances are, you’ll actually be a fluent speaker before that happens.

3 Likes
5

Casual tv watching is only a very small part of what languages learners can do with subtitles.

How best to use it - is up to you and your level. From video in your target with your native subtitles, to audio only with no pictures. Between those two you have subtitled in a third language, in the target language matching perfectly the audio or not - and video with no subtitles. Reading the subtitles with no video is also interesting.

Any subtitles, will distract you from the listening.

2 target sentences that mean more or less the same but don’t match could be an interesting material to work with.

6

Calling it a fallacy is quite exagerrated I think. I get your point, but past a certain level you would like to be confronted to the target-language subtitle.

But it’s a false problem. As long as you expose yourself enough to the language, you will progress, wheter using the language subtitles or not.

I try to no bother myself too much with those questions, I just try to expose myself as much as possible. As long as I keep mixing a bit of grammar and a lot of exposure, I will get better !

Good post though !

1 Like
7

I’ve noticed the same thing. When I wanted to improve my reading comprehension (around B1) I “read” my TV shows using their language subtitles. This was useful practice, as I read 20 TV scripts worth of Spanish, but it wasn’t listening practice. I was reading it, not hearing the actors. Like you said, it’s a near-impossible feat for the brain to both read and hear at the same time in a new language that you’re learning, at the speed that a native talker (a professional) is delivering prerehearsed lines.

So, after I had read enough Spanish episodes to understand the words being used, I realized the subtitles were a crutch and I needed to remove them. So, I practiced my listening by moving the subtitles back to my native English. This forced me to listen, not read.

Also, I could spot places where perfect translations aren’t possible. When you say, “Hey, this English translation’s wrong! But I know why…” it means that you’re listening to the spoken Spanish, and understanding the language differences why they don’t match

I witnessed a lot of language purists/critics say that having my language’s subtitles on “wasn’t really watching it in Spanish.” But within a season or two of having those subtitles on, I was able to turn them off. Which is a sign that the method worked, that like I had said, it was harder to watch in my native English subtitles, because it forced me to develop listening skills.

Now I watch subtitle-free, until it’s those dreaded scenes with crickets and clatter and party music, where there’s no way I can hear what the actors are saying. The audio mixing can be a problem, just flip the subtitles on and don’t stress as the actors whisper while the “background music” blasts over top of them.

I’ve felt, from my journey, that I had 4 steps:

  1. Native L1 subtitles, L2 audio, just to get a flavor for the language.
  2. As your vocabulary grows and you can begin reading, L2 subtitles, L2 audio, with references back to L1 subtitles to learn new words. (Vocabulary building stage. Study grammar - why do these word patterns show up? Scripts are a great place to find examples of your newly-studied verb tenses)
  3. Listening Comprehension stage. Now that you can read well, BACK to L1 subtitles to focus on the audio primarily. Pause often and repeat the actor’s sentences. It’s had the funny effect on me that when I say, “No puedo” I say it with the accent of Sofia from El Hotel de los Secretos, and there’s about ten other words that simply conjure up other characters. TV is great because there’s so much repetition of the same words and phrases, and it’s everyday life, a course book with a set of vocabulary.
  4. Finally, ready for no subtitles!

I also feel like audiobooks are a better way of getting pure audio. But after a long day of studying Spanish, why not splurge on an hour of watching a murder mystery of mindless television, in your second language? So, yes, count me as another fan of subtitles in your native language; I find them as an answer key to “check” that I understand what I am hearing. I see no shame in using them.
And enjoy the tv options: We are lucky to live in a Netflix /online-demand era of worldwide tv options. Tonight, do I want to watch Mexico or Spain, Colombia or Argentina? English users have all of Hollywood, British TV, and HBO to learn from.

Another tip: I also like when I can find my regular American movies with Spanish subtitles - that’s more common to find than dubs. There’s something great and unexpected when you’re just trying to watch a cheesy Christmas movie for the holidays, and you get to infuse a dose of Spanish grammar at the bottom of the screen. Hallmark Christmas movies with Spanish subtitles are just something that make me smile. And yes, I find myself reading the L2 words more than I’m listening to the dialogue in my native English at times. Those L2 subtitles pretty much prevent hearing the words anyone is saying, in my opinion. Probably that’s a good thing, when it’s a 3 out of 10 star low-budget holiday movie…

8

I agree about becoming a fluent speaker before being able to understand stuff. I can speak Spanish quite well, and when I read the subtitles, I understand everything. It is just the spoken medium that is so difficult to understand. I have ever read literature in Spanish and when I watch normal Youtube videos I have no problem even at high velocity, but movies and TV shows are just unconquerable so far. At least some of them. It also depends a lot on the dialect. I mean, Spanish is varied as hell.

1 Like
9

Also, I do tend to use subtitles even when watching stuff in my native language or a language that I don’t need them for, like English. It is weird but I have become quite dependent on subtitles, no matter how well I understand the content without them. I need to cut down on subs, I think. If I don’t need subs in English why do I use them? The same with my native language, if I can, I turn on the subs because I’ve become so used to them being there.

10

If you need subs at all you’re watching things that are not comprehensible.

If you watch stuff appropriate to your level context and visual cues will be all the subtitles you need.

I don’t doubt watching with L1 subs is helpful - it’s what most Scandinavians do. But, what are you watching for ? Entertainment ? To improve listening skills ? To improve reading skills ?

To improve listening skills subs are a hindrance as proven by multiple studies.

To improve reading skills, just read.

Just get comprehensible input and watch that instead. The benefits are that you can find more material you can use without having to get subs for it and you will be enjoying the content as intended for natives.

11

The crux of the issue for me is, if you’re reading and listening to try and pair the two up to try and understand, how much of the actual action are you paying attention to - the VISUAL component ?

When i watch a foreign language film, say City of God, where the TL is something i’ve got zero interest in, i spend my time reading the English not paying attention to the film.

12

Disagree with the last bit, in a way. I’m not in the C levels but some TV is very comprehensible to me.

To me language learning isn’t about learning at all, it’s about doing in the TL what you want to do, what you enjoy, once you’ve got a decent grounding in the language. Just go for it. Do what you want.

I’m a B2ish and some TV is too far out of reach. Engrenages. Loved it with English subs, but for French listening it’s pointless at the minute because they talk quietly, they mumble, use lots of slang and colloquialisms and there is often several people arguing at once.

But i can understand cookery programmes. Programmes about child learning. Documentaries. Cartoons. Some youtube channels.

There is no need to file this stuff away in the C+ cabinet. It’s what’s going to GET me to the C levels.

13

There is no ‘better way’ of getting anything. There are ways you enjoy and ways you don’t.

You’re never going to stick at anything you dont like for a long period of time.

I hate audiobooks. Because when i read i like to go slowly and take everything in, even in English. I like to use my imagination and imagine the scene. The tastes. The smells. This using of senses is both harder with audiobooks and yet insanely productive for remembering things in the TL because the more senses we invoke the more we remember.

So audiobooks aren’t a ‘better’ way unless you actually LIKE audiobooks.

The best way to get pure isolated vocab quickly is without doubt flashcards like Anki. Isolated words are learned quickest by this method. That’s a fact.

But who wants to ‘study’ a language on flashcards when you could just see them in context and enjoy them being used as intended ?

The message is to DO WHAT YOU LIKE. Make it comprehensible and you’re onto a winner if you GIVE IT ENOUGH TIME.

1 Like
14

So ultimately, watching series and films in your target language with the target language AUDIO then using your native language’s SUBTITLES to relieve the stress on the brain and for your brain to focus more on the audio than the reading and reading in your native language requires very minimal effort when compared to reading your target languages subtitles? and then over time as you keep increasing your known words and increasing your comprehension with more input turning the subtitles off?

15

So ultimately, watching series and films in your target language with the target language AUDIO then using your native language’s SUBTITLES to relieve the stress on the brain and for your brain to focus more on the audio than the reading and reading in your native language requires very minimal effort when compared to reading your target languages subtitles? and then over time as you keep increasing your known words and increasing your comprehension with more input turning the subtitles off?

16

I would say yes, you just hear the audio, hear the audio, and it gets more recognizable. I would recommend television shows because the are repetitive episode to episode, the characters don’t change every 2 hours like they do in a movie, and familiarity is more important than shocking you.

Also, by the point I take away the L2 subtitles and listen in my L1, I’d have already understood the majority of the words in the series. For instance, I had an 80 episode series back when I was A2. I was listening to hear basic pronunciation. For season 2 and 3, I was reading the scripts, and season 4, I was listening to the audio again.

The point wasn’t to gain new vocabulary, it was to gain the ability to hear rapidly. The words in a tv show are words you already know. The ten new words to an episode are the times you switch to Spanish subs just to see what you’re hearing. Vocabulary building I’d recommend with the scripts in your L2 on, but that’s not building audio comprehension. Listening to the movie with no L2 subtitles (except at moments when your comprehension fails you), is the way to go.

17

I’m talking about TV telenovelas here, not cinematic movies. The production is low, it’s the same eight sets for fifty episodes. If it’s a scene I care about, I might rewatch it twice, once for the Spanish and once for the fan appreciation of my favorite characters.
It’s one of those things that if I’m going to study, I might as well add my love of TV into it. It was one of my “hobbies” pre-studying, and I just transfered it into part of my all-Spanish life. An episode a day to relax (and yes, study). Now that my exam’s over, I can now catch up on all the best English-language tv that stacked up over the year.
Also, hopefully you’re picking stories that you ARE interested in. When my second long-form series ended, I had to shop around and try several more first episodes of shows until I found another program that truly enticed my full attention. Mostly, the shows I’m watching are ones that capture my attention and have big fan bases internationally - and I’ve been able to talk about some of them with people from the country of origin; we compared favorite characters and joked about plot highlights.

18

if you do not need a high vocab to start watching series and movies as you will be using your native languages subtitles you can start at any time then? I could begin learning French and start watching “The incredibles” for example and still some how improve listening comprehension even though I would not know any of the words? but it wouldn’t matter because I have the native language subtitles right? this cannot be correct.

19

Communication isn’t about the scene or scenery. If you’re reading subtitles you’re not paying attention to who is saying what, their mannerisms, body language, facial expressions, movements or interactions. That was my point.

20

and to add to my previous post if you do not need a high vocab to start watching series and movies as you will be using your native languages subtitles you can start at any time then? I could begin learning French and start watching “The incredibles” for example and still some how improve listening comprehension even though I would not know any of the words? but it wouldn’t matter because I have the native language subtitles right? this cannot be correct.