The reason why it does not make any sense .- for those who learn Japanese -

When the Japanese, um, borrowed kanji from China, they got it wrong. There’s no other way to say it. According to Google, the shit came over in the 5th century, because Japanese traders needed to communicate with their Korean and Chinese counterparts. For every existing Japanese word (what we today call the ‘KUNyomi’ word), they tried to find the corresponding Chinese kanji, and pair them up. Furthermore, they decided to use the Chinese pronunciation of the words, too, but got it wrong … It’s kind of like Canada: everyone in Canada has to learn Quebeqois French, even though real French can’t understand Quebeqois-French! Anyway, the decision to force the square peg of Chinese characters in the round hole of the existing Japanese language leads to some really janky situations!

JANKY SITUATION 1: 150 words all having the same ON-yomi.

Whichever seafaring trader decided to import kanji to Japan obviously couldn't speak Chinese! Duh - Chinese has tones, and Japanese doesn't. The Japanese trader was like, "It all sounds the same - KOU, SHOU, wing, wong, whatever. So let's import something we don't understand!"

And the Japanese land-lubbers for some reason were heard to reply, "Here is a whole new vocabulary that adds nothing to our existing language, and which can't be understood by Chinese either! OK, we'll learn it, but only if we can keep our existing language, so now we have to learn twice as many words for thing

we already knew how to say!"

And the seafaring traders were like, "OK deal."

And then, "Hey! Someone's trying to be Catholic over there!"

"That's over the line - let's massacre the whole village!"

That is how Japanese multiculturalism went, back in the day.

JANKY SITUATION 2: Kanji which have two (or more!) ONyomi.

China has hella different dialects. So one Japanese trader would come back from Shanghai, where they pronounce 青い (blue) as SEI, and he'd teach everyone in his town to say SEI. Meanwhile, another Japanese trader would come back from Hong Kong, where they pronounce 青い as SHOU, and he'd teach everyone in HIS town to say SHOU. So there's that.

JANKY SITUATION 3: Duplicate kanji.

Even after assigning each Japanese word to a kanji, they still had hella kanji left over. So they took native Japanese words (KUNYOMI, remember) with 2 or 3 nuances and ASSIGNED EACH NUANCE TO A DIFFERENT KANJI, WHILE KEEPING THE KUNYOMI THE SAME. The most infamous examples are the 3 katais (硬い, 固い, and 堅い), the 3 hakarus(計る, 図る, and 測る) , and the 3 tsutomerus(勤める, 努める, and 務める).

As if that were not pernicious enough, they frequently picked kanji which looked as similar as their meanings:

激 - intense 極 - extreme

摸 - pattern 模 - model

傾 - incline 偏 - lean or be predisposed to

Another example: to freeze is こおる, and frost/ice is こおり - both clearly came from the same Japanese word. But when they were picking Kanji to assign to the Japanese words, こおる became 凍る and こおり became 氷. So now you have to learn twice as many kanji, PLUS you STILL have to learn the original Japanese words (koori and kooru) in order to PRONOUNCE them. So nothing was achieved!

Can you believe that ???

Beginner students have been known to weep openly in class when the teacher tries to explain about this.

Among linguists, Japanese is notorious for having hella same-sounding words which have totally unrelated meanings. Get out your electric dictionary and type in かく. Or しょうこう. Or こうか Or かい.
Pretty fuckin’ insane, eh?
These same-sounding words are called homophones, and they are almost all the ONyomi-usin’ jukugo. In other words, the homophones largely result from Japanese people trying to speak Chinese without tones - Janky Situation #1 of the Historical Context Rant.
Even the word “kanji” ITSELF has like 3 homophones : 漢字, 感じ, and 幹事!
Fortunately, this is mostly a problem when one is LISTENING - maybe that’s why *most JTV shows have subtitles … in Japanese! *But if you’re READING two homophones, the kanji are really helpful in clearing up the meaning - If you analyze the English keywords, you’ll see that the first “kanji” (漢字) means “Chinese + Letter” - so clearly, THAT’S the “kanji” you want. On the other hand, 幹事 breaks down to “main office + action” - in other words, it means “a secretary.”
This is actually one of the few things where the complexity of kanji makes it MORE logical and MORE handy than spoken Japanese.
Moving on to synonyms: all languages have synonyms. Some people say that synonyms lend variety and shades of nuance to a language, keeping it colorful and alive. I am not one of those people.
Most synonyms are dead-wood. They have the same meanings AND nuance. And what’s worse, you can’t even use them interchangeably - For instance, you can say, “Travel to the ends of the earth,” but you can’t say, “Travel to the ends of the globe.” You can say, “I’m going to the repair shop,” but you can’t say, “I’m going to the fix shop.” … even though repair and fix mean the same thing! Can you imagine how fucked-up that is to someone learning English??? It’s like we only keep those redundant words around to specifically to fuck up ESL goons.
The real problem comes when certain kanji are homonyms AND synonyms at the same time! These are what I call the ‘duplicate kanji’ - for instance, 硬い, 固い, and 堅い are all pronounced かたい, and they all mean HARD.

http://www.kanjidamage.com/kanji_facts

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When I had to study german in high school I spent a lot of time focusing on how annoying and confusing the grammar was to the point I used it as an excuse not to study, the language simply wasn’t being fair to me so I quit. When I was allowed to choose a language to study myself I picked japanese because I though it seemed really interesting. Personally I thought learning Kanji was really fun and interesting and never felt like it was a chore to learn, albeit somewhat time consuming. My classmates who spent time pointing out difficulties with the language when they could spend time studying never made it past the beginner level. My advice to you is to embrace the kanji, without them an adult level of japanese is not attainable.

If you are a beginner, start with the pictographs, if you haven’t checked out Heisig’s Remember the Kanji book, I always recommend it to students with no prior knowlewdge of chinese characters.
Things will get a lot easier as you learn more and more characters. After you know around 500 you will see patterns in the madness and will be able to start guessing the meaning and sounds of new characters. When you know enough to read texts and books you will be able to pick up new characters just as easily as you would pick up new words in english. So be patient, work hard and try to stay motivated, japanese is well worth all the hard work!

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It is important to know what you are coping with and the story beyond it , in order to have a better understanding .
So,
you can also see it from this point of view .

Kanjidamage explains the history of kanji as follows:

"When the Japanese, um, borrowed kanji from China, they got it wrong. There’s no other way to say it. According to Google, the shit came over in the 5th century, because Japanese traders needed to communicate with their Korean and Chinese counterparts. For every existing Japanese word (what we today call the ‘KUNyomi’ word), they tried to find the corresponding Chinese kanji, and pair them up. Furthermore, they decided to use the Chinese pronunciation of the words, too, but got it wrong … It’s kind of like Canada: everyone in Canada has to learn Quebeqois French, even though real French can’t understand Quebeqois-French! Anyway, the decision to force the square peg of Chinese characters in the round hole of the existing Japanese language leads to some really janky situations!
JANKY SITUATION 1: 150 words all having the same ON-yomi.
Whichever seafaring trader decided to import kanji to Japan obviously couldn’t speak Chinese! Duh - Chinese has tones, and Japanese doesn’t. The Japanese trader was like, “It all sounds the same - KOU, SHOU, wing, wong, whatever. So let’s import something we don’t understand!

Another example: to freeze is こおる, and frost/ice is こおり - both clearly came from the same Japanese word. But when they were picking Kanji to assign to the Japanese words, こおる became 凍る and こおり became 氷. So now you have to learn twice as many kanji, PLUS you STILL have to learn the original Japanese words (koori and kooru) in order to PRONOUNCE them. So nothing was achieved!
Can you believe that shit???
Beginner students have been known to weep openly in class when the teacher tries to explain about this.”


It seems that Lightofgold’s entire post was made by simply copy-and-pasting. In his second post, he emphasizes “this point of view”, but there are no descriptions about it in his own words.

“When the Japanese, um, borrowed kanji from China, they got it wrong.”
"It’s kind of like Canada: everyone in Canada has to learn Quebeqois French, even though real French can’t understand Quebeqois-French! "

「えー、ただいまご紹介にあずかりました何々です」というようなセリフが入った資料をインターネットで見つけて、それをそのままコピペして自分が書いたレポートとして先生に提出する大学生を、あとになって連想しました。1行でも2行でもいいから、引用文を自分の言葉で紹介する文を最初に入れていれば、そして、引用符などを適切に使っていれば、いいと思うのですが。また、カナダの状況について触れているので、そのことにも詳しいのかと、最初に読んだときに勘違いしました。「引用の作法」をLingtofgoldさんは心得ていないようですね。
(I am afraid that I am overly helpful to Lightofgold.)

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Yutaka -san

‘’ he emphasized “this point of view”, but there are no descriptions about it. ‘’

The emphasize was about ‘’ It is important to know what you are coping with and the story beyond it , in order to have a better understanding ‘’ but you was too busy being ‘’ your self ‘’ that you did not notice it .

‘’ post was made by simply copying and pasting. ‘’

Indeed it was, How did you know ? - no pun intended -

‘’ but there are no descriptions about it in his own words. ‘’

Wait , do you doubt my writing skills ?

僕もまったく同じ勘違いをしてしまいました。面白いスレッドになりそうだなと思ったら、ただの記事のコピペだと気づき、ちょっとがっかりしました。笑

‘’ I am afraid ‘’
thou shalt be afraid .

I am overly helpful to Lightofgold.

''the thing is in the mind of the beholder to Decide ‘’

I love this post! It is so funny, and true at the same time lol!!!

@ NickHoyt

I don’t understand what the title of this thread means. What does “it” refer to? In addition, all the sentence in the first post are copied from another site. There isn’t any comment by the poster. A kind of plagiarism. Furthermore, Kanjidamage’s “historical” explanation, which Lingtofgold copy-pased into his post, is absurd.

Kanjidamage wrote:
"It’s kind of like Canada: everyone in Canada has to learn Quebeqois French, even though real French can’t understand Quebeqois-French!
"And the seafaring traders were like, ‘OK deal.’
“That is how Japanese multiculturalism went, back in the day.”
http://www.kanjidamage.com/kanji_facts

I don’t know anything about “Quebeqois-French”, but I suppose that it is French in grammar. The kanbun system uses the rules of Japanese grammar. I suppose the system was developed by Buddhist priests or scholars who could speak and read Chinese. The story about “seafaring traders” and Catholics is a complete nonsense.

The following descriptions seem to be more accurate:
“The Japanese language had no written form at the time Chinese characters were introduced, and texts were written and read only in Chinese. Later, during the Heian period (794–1185), however, a system known as kanbun emerged, which involved using Chinese text with diacritical marks to allow Japanese speakers to restructure and read Chinese sentences, by changing word order and adding particles and verb endings, in accordance with the rules of Japanese grammar.
Chinese characters also came to be used to write Japanese words, resulting in the modern kana syllabaries. Around 650 CE, a writing system called man’yōgana (used in the ancient poetry anthology Man’yōshū) evolved that used a number of Chinese characters for their sound, rather than for their meaning. Man’yōgana written in cursive style evolved into hiragana, or onna-de, that is, “ladies’ hand,” a writing system that was accessible to women (who were denied higher education). Major works of Heian-era literature by women were written in hiragana. Katakana emerged via a parallel path: monastery students simplified man’yōgana to a single constituent element. Thus the two other writing systems, hiragana and katakana, referred to collectively as kana, are descended from kanji.”–Wikipedia


“記録によると、日本における、仏教の公伝は538年とされ、朝鮮半島に当時存在していた百済の国王、聖明王により、日本の朝廷に伝えられたという。この時、仏像と経論とが日本にもたらされた。同時に大量の漢字がもたらされたことになる。経論がどのようなものであったかは別として、大量に漢字がもたらされた結果、中国から見れば大変な遅れであったが、日本でも文字による時代が始まることになる。漢字の発音を日本語化するとともに、個々の漢字について、その字義、語義に当たるものを定着させねばならないことになる。これが訓と呼ばれるものになる。”

“it” refers to the Japanese language/writing system. It’s a perfectly legible sentence.
With all due respect, I think you’re being a little bit too critical of Lightofgold’s English.

That being said, I’m not a fan of these “copy and paste” posts either.

@apop567

I think that language and its writing system are different. I imagine that the pronoun “it” in this situation should refer to something that can be assumed clearly between the writer and the readers. The sentence “Japanese does not make any sense for learners of the language” does not seem to make any sense. One the other hand, Kanjidamage’s “historical” explanations do not make any sense. I really wonder what “it” refer to. There is no reference about it in his own words.


I like your phrase “With all due respect”. Thank you for your comment. Incidentally, I was responding to NickHoyt’s comment, not to Lightofgold’s.

Sure it’s a little vague but it’s still an extremely trivial point you’re making. I’m sure you have many more important things to do than nitpick an English learner’s posts on an internet forum ^^
People often use exaggeration when expressing frustration (“I’m so bored I could die” etc.). For example a kid doing math homework might be prone to say “I hate math. It makes no sense”. But you know that, right?

“I hate math. It makes no sense”.

Something important tends to be hidden in “trivial” points. If I were a math teacher, I would ask the boy which part of math you didn’t understand.


“The reason why it does not make any sense .- for those who learn Japanese -”
“The reason why Japanese does not make any sense for those who learn it.”

I don’t know that the above two senteces mean the same thing. I suppose that in the second sentence “it” refers to the language, but in the first sentence, the “it” can refer to different things such as order of words, homophones in speech, and kanji in writing. The “it” might also refer to Kanjidamage’s explanation which Lingtofgold copy-pasted into the first post of this thread.

The existence of a lot of homophones in Japanese might be a problem, although this is why kanji is useful. As to synonyms such as “硬い, 固い, and 堅い”, you might wonder how different they are in meaning, but the core meanig is the same. You may write “かたい” in hiragana.