They say that the smarts ones know when to stop so I’ll leave it at that .
Good night and I hope you’ll find a way to transform yourself in a decent person ( or not ).
I hope Steve will say something of his uncivilized outburst .
I never heard of ‘Limgq’'. Were you talking to your dog again ?
I stand by what I said. You are an idiot
I don’t want to take any sides here, but there are a number of things on this thread said by both MADARA and Spatterson which aren’t really in order.
(If this were my forum, this would be a very very rare occasion where I would feel like pulling the entire thread, probably…)
ad MADARA: (…) The Shia (Arabic: شيعة, Shīʿah) represent the second largest denomination of Islam and adherents of Shia Islam are called Shias or the Shi’a as a collective or Shi’i individually (…)
Honestly, you are the first Muslim I have met who says Shia are not Muslims.
As for the terrorist attacks, the killings and other atrocities committed in Syria, I’m sure anybody in their right mind would be just as appalled at what is going on in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan etc. as you are.
Since you seem to blame other people for those crimes (Shiites and Alawis), have you not heard of Sunnis causing bloodshed in Shiite communities and the other way round in Iraq?
Just listen to what the Taliban say to all those who don’t follow their stone-age interpretation of Islam. Surely you won’t argue that the Taliban aren’t Muslims either, will you?
There are different types of interpretation of the Qu’ran, it is not just about translations. Wahabism as it is practised in Saudi Arabia for example is one of the most conservative and radical forms of Islam. I don’t know what your personal beliefs are when it comes to women but I can’t imagine that you feel that they should not be allowed to drive a car or to leave their house without the permission of a male member of their family. All these rules are stricly applied in Saudi Arabia.
Any crime against humanity is a terrible thing, no matter who commits it. When it comes to religiously motivated violence, however, there can hardly be any doubt that currently most of such crimes are committed in the name of Allah.
By the way, the vast majority of the victims of islamist terrorists are other Muslims. You mentioned Syria yourself. You must be aware of all those killings amongst the various islamistic groups there.
As I said before, I have Muslim friends and they are nothing like the islamists we see and hear on TV. There are more than a billion Muslims on this planet and many of them are peaceful people. I don’t agree with most of what they say, but I don’t have to, as long as they (and anybody else for that matter) understand that they have no right to kill or attack others based on their beliefs.
What worries me is that you almost automatically blamed Shiites and Alawis for the atrocities committed in Syria. This is where the vicious circle of perpetual killings starts - this automatic blaming of “the others”.
You wrote something along the line “no matter how many Muslims die, we’ll always be considered terrorists”.
As long as some Muslims keep throwing bombs, cutting off heads, throwing acid into little girls’ faces etc., the world will view them as terrorists and that is exactly what they are; mind you, not all Muslims, of course not, but those who commit those crimes.
If Muslims want to make sure that Islam is viewed in a different light, they need to do something about it. Just to give you an example: A few years ago there were some major demonstrations of Muslims living in Austria because of the Mohammed caricatures. They took to the streets (something which, by the way, they would not be able to do in quite a lot of countries where Islam is the state religion) and expressed their anger.
I have yet to see a single manifestation of Muslims here where they express their outrage over the many killings committed in the name of their God. It is this kind of attitude that scares people, including me. How come some caricatures make them flock to the streets, while pictures of maimed bodies don’t seem to bother them at all? Where are the masses of Muslims protesting against the (supposedly) wrong image of Islam by raising their voices and clearly stating that they are against all those killings?
In a recent survey about 70 % of the Muslims living in Austria said that religious laws always have priority over state laws. While amongst Christians only about 6 % were of the same opinion. This shows the enormous divide that exists between Muslims and other groups in some respects.
In a free and democratic society religious law must never play a decisive factor. Besides, nobody would know which religious law to apply anyway. There is no uniform Islam for example. Just today I read an article about a group of children that were killed by Talibans because they played football. In the eyes of the Taliban playing football is not Halal. A few weeks ago girls were executed because they were playing music, again this is considered to be Haram by the Taliban.
These are just a few examples of why people are critical of certain aspects of Islam and I don’t blame them for that.
Again, fortunately there are millions of Muslims who would never even think of committing such atrocities, but as long as Muslims don’t manage to control those radical groups the world will not look too favourably upon the “religion of peace”.
ad Jay: (…) I don’t want to take any sides here, but there are a number of things on this thread said by both MADARA and Spatterson which aren’t really in order. (…)
This seems to have gotten out of hand. A pity, actually.
I don’t think this thread got out of hand. I still plan to post a response to Robert’s posts tomorrow, though maybe I will just do it on the other thread.
@ MADARA and spatterson
Your argument are boring and tedious.
Then don’t read them
@Madara -
You should make a distinction between people’s humanity on one hand, and the things they do that you dislike. Someone’s religious beliefs or sexuality should not deter us from giving a damn and having compassion for people from all walks of life.
I’m not an atheist either, but I don’t like our atheist friends here any less, and some of them are really, really cool. I listen to what they say, and (hopefully) treat them with respect. I don’t make negative assumptions about their level of intelligence, and hopefully they will stop making negative assumptions and denigrating the intelligence of people of faith.
If someone wanted to make fun of my intelligence because I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, I would shrug my shoulders and fondly remember the astonished reaction of my Logic Professor to my academic ability in his class: “Julie! You’re a highly intelligent person!” I guess I didn’t look the part.
Madara, I remember you crossed the line when you called gay people animals in a previous thread.
Do you ever listen to yourself?:
" Either you’re gay and you hate women or you’re anti-gay and you are attracted to them there’s nothing in between."
"A gay guy is inclined to hate women since he doesn’t feel attracted to them , right ? And those who are normal should be against them because they’re the exact opposite of them and not in a good way. "
Your ‘logic’ is absurd. You wouldn’t say you’re not attracted to men so therefore you don’t have a good opinion of males, would you? You’re not sexually attracted to your siblings; does that mean you don’t have a good opinion of them? Of course not!
I told you early hours of the morning, my time, to “pretty please sweetie shut the crap up!”, as you got under my skin, but I was still (unsuccessfully) trying to sugar-coat it. Colin thought that I was worried about “fragile” people.
Rather, I was reacting to your lack of respect and maligning of other people. I don’t see our Muslim (normal Australian term) members or my Muslim followers at LingQ spewing hateful nonsense as you do. And I was reacting to your appalling lack of logic.
Lastly, making fun of others’ typing errors is childish. No one is making fun of your, at times, strange English because we understand that you are learning English, and the level you’ve reached as a learner is commendable.
Thanks Julz for your previous reply. As a human being who also is one of Jesus’ disciples, I want to join with you in seeking to respect others because they are also human beings. There is no place for denigrating people for their erroneous grammar or spelling, or for believing or not believing that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life either.
However, you rightly speak up when people are writing comments that do not show logic.
Some of Dawkins comments do not demonstrate logic either. He says ‘Next time that somebody tells you that something is true, why not say to them: ‘What kind of evidence is there for that?’ And if they can’t give you a good answer, I hope you’ll think very carefully before you believe a word they say.’ He also says, by writing a book called ‘The God Delusion’, ‘There is no God’. Where is the evidence for that statement?
I think Dawkins is an interesting fellow. I once heard him making jokes on You-tube about what he would say to God when he met Him, and I remember thinking (without malice) that he’d crap his pants when he saw God - ha!
But I did hear him say something along the lines that he didn’t really know what to say to the Christians who mention their beliefs are based on a personal relationship with God.
My “hero” back from the 70s was a guy named Josh McDowell, a law-student who set out to prove God didn’t exist, but ended up becoming a Christian after many thousands of hours’ research. He’s the author of “Evidence that demands a verdict”, and the “Resurrection Factor”.
Yes, I became a Christian in the 70s.
Another Christian hero to me as a teenager in the 70s was Corrie Ten Boom, a wonderful Dutch lady who was incarcerated by the Nazis for sheltering Jews. Awesome woman!
The thing is, I have the privilege of knowing some dear elderly ladies over the years in my churches, “matriarchs of the faith”, as I esteem them. Incredibly strong women. I am in awe of them. Some were women who experienced miracles during the charismatic movement of the 50s/60s. One grand old lady, whom is also my dear friend, was one such recipient of a miracle. And then there are my and others’ supernatural experiences, and life experience over the years. Of course, usually the ex-law student in me won’t allow me to share these experiences, as they are at best subjective to others.
But when Dawkins and atheists say of course there is no God, I shrug my shoulders and get on with life. I met a distinguished Swiss academic some years back heading up some important research (forgot the details, serious!); when in due course I asked him whether he believed in God, he replied, “Of course! I’m a biologist!”
There are several respected LingQ members I’m aware of who are people of faith, and quietly go about their lives.
Exactly!
Ad Julz and Ginkgo: I am not a believer myself but that would never stop me from talking to somebody who believes in God. I would not want to make fun of anybody’s religious convictions either. As a matter of fact, I very much enjoy talking to people who are faithful to their beliefs as long as they show some respect for those who don’t share their convictions.
After all, I might be wrong, I just don’t know. I have read a few of Dawkins’ books, just as I have read the Bible, part of the Thora and the Qu’ran. It is important to me to try and understand what people believe and we need to keep our communication channels open as long as possible.
There are limits though. I don’t think it makes sense to try and talk to someone who thinks he has a right to kill a girl because she wants to go to school. I too believe, as MADARA said in this or another thread, that these excesses are not based on Islam but are mostly the result of archaic traditions in combination with either oppressive regimes (as in Saudi Arabia) and/or a completeley erroneous interpretation of the Qu’ran. I say erroneous interpretation because I am firmly convinced that the Qu’ran is not to be read and understood in a way that tells people to kill others.
Yes, there are passages in it that suggest you should use violence against others, but you find these passages in other holy scriptures as well.
My mother is very religious and I would never even dream of trying to denigrate her (or anybody else) for that. Besides, I used to believe in God too and I don’t think I was a complete moron then.
I have to admit that I don’t really make much sense of many things that MADARA wrote. In some other threads he seemed to say quite a few things that I thought sounded reasonable. He sounded much more open, friendlier and not that “missionary”.
What really upset me was the way he kept trying to convince others that gay people are bad per se and that they are bad for others as well.
People do bad things but they are not bad per se due to their religion, race, sexual orientation etc.
I watched a discussion about Sotchi yesterday on Austrian TV. The Russian ambassador in Vienna tried to defend the law supposedly forbidding propaganda for homosexuality in Russia. Honestly, I still don’t know why people keep coming up with this term. I am almost 46 years old and I have travelled to more than 40 countries. Never ever in my life have I seen anything that comes even close to propaganda for homosexuality.
One may dislike some of the gay parades but even when I was in SF on Christopher Street’s Day I never saw anybody trying to convince somebody else to become gay (it wouldn’t be possible anyway). This theory of seduction is pure nonsense. If that was true we would not have a single gay person in our predominantly heterosexual societies, especially given the fact that homosexuals are still threatened with imprisonment or even death in some places.
What I saw were people trying to tell others that it is ok to not be heterosexual.
The worst thing about the Russian ambassador in yesterday’s TV show was that he again linked homosexuality to pedophilia. This man obviously is not stupid (by the way, his German was flawless), but either he got indoctrinated from early on (which still is no excuse for his obvious ignorance) or he is under so much pressure that he just can’t say anything else but what he is told by Putin and his followers.
If anybody had denigrated Muslims in the way gay people were by MADARA I would have spoken up as well. I feel sorry for the many Muslims that are discriminated against because of what other people do or have done in the name of their God.
As for miracles in life …hmh, I don’t really believe in them. I can’t even begin to imagine how many people in the concentration camps prayed to God so he would save their lives or the lives of their children. While some individuals showed outstanding and almost supra-natural courage by giving their lives for others, I don’t see any miracle in human history as a whole.
When I think of the many defenseless victims of crime, I don’t see anybody working miracles there either. Maybe I don’t understand the concept of miracles or the way they are performed, but I just don’t believe in them. That does not make me assume that those who do are stupid or gullible.
But when I hear people say (like a Catholic priest in my neighbourhood) that African women should not ask their husbands to use condoms even if they know they have AIDS because God will protect them from the disease, I think this has nothing to do with religion anymore. To me this is a crime.
And I guess we all know those “Christians” arguing that natural disasters like the ones that occurred in Haiti, the US and many other places were some sort of punishment by God.
These people are not only insane but they are ruthless and heartless. It is this kind of people both believers and non-believers need to stand united against.
@Robert - Hear, Hear! (especially your last few paragraphs).
Yeh, I was saying earlier somewhere about the religious trolls on You-tube saying babies were born with disability as a result of presumably, their parents’ sin. Worse are the appalling “muslim in-breeding at its best” comments. I can’t believe how hateful and ignorant people can be. And yes, there are those who think every natural disaster and locust-plague is sent from God, et cetera. And don’t get me started on the treatment of women in the name of religion!
We should unite on the basis of our shared humanity.
@thirdtimesthecharm: “If Muslims want to make sure that Islam is viewed in a different light, they need to do something about it.”
Like denounce their immoral ‘holy book’ altogether…
The Abrahamic religions are all sickeningly evil when you get down to it and actually read the immoral, hate-filled garbage in their ‘holy books’. The quickest way to become an atheist for any decent, normal functioning mind is to read these books through.
Instead believers want to denounce the fundamentalists, you know, the people who actually follow the religion and do the evil things written in their book, rather than just realize they are cherry-picking nice things that can nonetheless be found in a fundamentally disgusting religion.
It’s embarrassing that in 2014 we still have human minds stuck in the bronze age. We need to come out of the dark already.
ad Robert:
Ja, so etwas ist wohl ein Verbrechen. Aber es ist auch ganz eindeutig gegen die Bibel: laut der heiligen Schrift sollen wir uns nicht unverantwortlich und dumm verhalten, wir sollen unsere Gesundheit also nicht bewusst gefährden (Siehe z.B. im Evangelium, als der Teufel Christo versucht hat…)
Dieser Priester ist also nach meiner Ansicht kein Christ - zumindest nicht im wahrsten Sinne des Wortes.
Diese Leute sind in der Tat verrückt. Was sie sagen, hat aber wiederum ganz und gar nichts mit der Lehre der Bibel zu tun.
@LFJ: "…The Abrahamic religions are all sickeningly evil when you get down to it and actually read the immoral, hate-filled garbage in their ‘holy books’. The quickest way to become an atheist for any decent, normal functioning mind is to read these books through.
Instead believers want to denounce the fundamentalists, you know, the people who actually follow the religion and do the evil things written in their book, rather than just realize they are cherry-picking nice things that can nonetheless be found in a fundamentally disgusting religion.
Statements like these slip over into bigotry, in my opinion.
(I would nevertheless defend your right to fee speech.)
Btw, I didn’t know before that written German is so coooool!!
“Diese Leute sind in der Tat verrückt. Was sie sagen, hat aber wiederum ganz und gar nichts mit der Lehre der Bibel zu tun.”
(How do I say, “Damn straight!” in German?) Wie sage ich: “Damn straight!” auf Deutsch? ^^
@Julz
Robert will tell us 
(…) Damn straight!" (…)
The easiest way would be to simply say: “Genau!”.
You might also say: Da hast du verdammt recht!
Got to run now, need to finish a translation 
Da hast du verdammt recht! Hahahaha!
@Easy_Rider: “Statements like these slip over into bigotry, in my opinion.”
Bigotry is about intolerance toward those who hold different opinions. In general, I’m not intolerant of others believing what they want to believe, but when their opinions and beliefs are derived from books filled with moral atrocities such as the condoning of slavery, genocide, human sacrifice, pedophilia, etc., and because opinions and beliefs inform actions, when people with these warped views use their beliefs to mistreat others, or when they are in positions of political power which have serious affects on the livelihood of the population, “damn straight” I’m intolerant toward them!
We all know apostasy in Islamic countries is still PUNISHABLE BY DEATH, right? Talk about bigotry… Why should the sickening beliefs of these evil people be tolerated?