Even though I’m not yet a parent I still have some opinions regarding this issue that are in my humble opinion of relevance .
Unfortunately we live in a world in which parents have lesser time to spend with their children and this has without a doubt a serious impact on our societies .
And even when they do spend the time with them , they don’t give them an appropriate education and this may prove to be an obstacle to future generation.
The reason for why I chose to put ‘Programming’ in the title is because there are two types of ways in which this is applicable: it’s either what goes on in their family or due to the information received from the media,school etc…
One of the things that strike me is this illogical notion of a child being allowed to do whatever they want after they reach the age of 18(depending on the country they live in).One of the reasons for this being wrong is that a child will never , while their parents are still alive, have more experience than those who raised him/her.
Also depending on what kind of programming the child received will determine what kind of person he/she will be in the future.The nasty part is when parents teach them to hate others or act in certain way that could be changed very difficultly .
I have absolutely no idea what you’re asking or talking about. But if I were a parent, I wouldn’t force upon them religion. Certainly not any sects that devalue women (Edit – or basic humans rights in general). Hint hint
I just wanted to start a thread in which we can discuss the elements that you already saw in the title.
I agree with everything you said. But the things you are hinting at have nothing to do with the thing I believe you are thinking of .
And as an advice I think you should try to think using reason and critical thinking instead of relying on your emotions and what others think about certain things .
Oh you mistake emotion for critical reasoning. I would never brainwash my child with religion. Certainly not one that does not support human rights. If you think this is an emotional statement you are sadly mistake
""One of the things that strike me is this illogical notion of a child being allowed to do whatever they want after they reach the age of 18(depending on the country they live in).One of the reasons for this being wrong is that a child will never , while their parents are still alive, have more experience than those who raised him/her. "
I don´t think it´s illogical. The world around us changes every day, and older people may have more experiences, but most these experiences are either not up-to-date anymore or led to “wrong” conclusions. “More experience” is useless, unless it leads to better decisions.
-My parents grew up in a society where nobody smoked pot. I grew up in a world where a lot of people smoke pot. Therefore, when it comes to pot, I´m more experienced and have more knowledge than they do.
-My parents grew up in a socialist society, I grew up in a capitalist society. Integrating into a capitalist society was harder for them then it is for me.
-Many experiences influence people in a negative way. Let´s say there´s a father who made horrible experiences with women, which lead him to the opinion that “Women are evil. You should never have sex because they´ll just get pregnant and ruin your life” or some shit like that. Should the son listen to his father because his father has “more experience”? Or should he make his OWN experiences?
etc.
Making decisions takes practice and parents who don´t allow their children to make their own decisions stop their children from becoming adults.
@spatterson "Oh you mistake emotion for critical reasoning. I would never brainwash my child with religion. "
I guess most parents who make their children believe in a religion do so because they think it´s “the right thing to do”.
They send their children into “faith schools” to “protect” them. Someone who´s brainwashed is too brainwashed to realize that he/she is brainwashed.
@Spatterson: Well it is an emotional statement considering that the only thing you have against religion is the fact that you don’t like it and not that you may posses even one logical argument to reject it.
@Paule:''Making decisions takes practice and parents who don´t allow their children to make their own decisions stop their children from becoming adults. ‘’
Then parents should not give their children any kind of advice ? You think it will better if they would just support them financially and allow them get up along the way whatever they see outside their home?
I for one don’t agree with this kind of reasoning .Parents can share their knowledge and experience with their children so as to be sure that they won’t do the same mistakes they’ve done when they were younger.
‘‘Let´s say there´s a father who made horrible experiences with women, which lead him to the opinion that “Women are evil. You should never have sex because they´ll just get pregnant and ruin your life” or some shit like that. Should the son listen to his father because his father has “more experience”? Or should he make his OWN experiences?’’
Well there are cases , like this one , when children shouldn’t listen to their parents. But cases like this are remote and can’t possibly make the rule.Sure I agree with you that there are instances in which parents are not allowed to interfere , such as choosing the university they will attend or their life spouses ( unless there is a good reason for it ).
Religious people are brainwashed ? This maybe true only if they are convinced in believing in something without evidence. Just saying that there is a Creator and then expecting to believing in Him just through sheer faith is without a doubt wrong.
“Then parents should not give their children any kind of advice ?”
Dude, I wrote “Parents should allow their children to make their own decisions”. I never talked about giving advice.
“Parents can share their knowledge and experience with their children so as to be sure that they won’t do the same mistakes they’ve done when they were younger.”
Can you give me one example?
“Religious people are brainwashed ? This maybe true only if they are convinced in believing in something without evidence.”
I´m not talking about the religious people who ignore most of the stuff in their holy book, only go to church occasionally, say “well, there must be something” and stuff like that.
I´m talking about fundies. “Non-believers will go to hell, masturbation is sinful, gays are evil, women are born to serve their husbands, my holy book is the literal word of god, the earth is 6000 years old, Evolution is a theory that was invented by Satan…” I think it´s appropriate to call people like that brainwashed. I can accept that some people have crazy beliefs, but I get angry when they go after children…
The other day, I heard a story about an atheist father who allowed his 6 year old daughter to go to church with one of his colleagues. After a few weeks, his daughter told him (with tears in her eyes), that he MUST go to church with her. When he asked why, she answered “Because you´ll go to hell if you don´t believe in Jesus”. That´s child abuse.
I am generally not so impressed with claims of child abuse by religious people. I can’t deny that the Dawkinsist have a point, but I am not so convinced. What I am convinced about is the brutality of circumcision. This is a horrible practice, and I can’t believe it is legal in developed countries.
That being said, one should certainly try their best to question their convictions in the face of convincing counterarguements. There are interesting arguments in favour of circumcision in some cases (such as in regions where a large fraction of the population is infected with the HIV virus). I don’t know so much about the research into this subject.
@Paule:''Dude, I wrote “Parents should allow their children to make their own decisions”. I never talked about giving advice. ‘’
I thought you were suggesting that parents should have as less influence on their children as possible.I’m sorry if I misunderstood you.
''I´m talking about fundies. “Non-believers will go to hell, masturbation is sinful, gays are evil, women are born to serve their husbands, my holy book is the literal word of god, the earth is 6000 years old, Evolution is a theory that was invented by Satan…”
Indeed women were not created to be the men’s servant neither were they destined to arouse men by being presented naked in magazines or in other places ( if someone thinks that this is the way to ‘liberate’ women then they must have a screw loose ).Also the Earth couldn’t have been created 6000 years ago considering all the scientific evidence that we have now.
And evolution may be right in the case of microorganisms but not for humans or animals. Even Darwin admitted in 'The Origins of Species ‘’ that some things he said had some loose ends. Also let me remind you that it is called ‘The Theory of Evolution’ and not ‘The Principle of Evolution’(I hope you can see the difference ).
@Colin: ''What I am convinced about is the brutality of circumcision. This is a horrible practice, and I can’t believe it is legal in developed countries. ‘’
If you think that circumcision is brutal that you have to come up with an argument that states what are the negative consequences of this routine surgery .It is known that those who are circumcised are less prone to cancer and other diseases(as you mentioned) , also it is a measure that benefits one’s hygiene.
The foreskin is a functional part of the body and should only be removed with the informed consent of the male, or if there is very good evidence that it poses a significant health risk, which in western countries, there is not. Babies cannot give consent. This is something that is forced on them before they are able to defend themselves. Circumcision of babies is barbaric, and would never be legal if it was not for the dominance superstitious religious beliefs about it.
Even if it is a significant health risk, this would still be very debatable. Would you like to see women’s breasts removed without their consent if it would avoid the risk of breast cancer?
@Spatterson:‘‘Chopping off bodyparts’’ ? What happens if someone does this surgery ?
Insane is taking drugs,getting tattoos and other stupid practices that cause problems to one’s health.
And I suggest you stay calm because there are plenty of people a lot smarter than you that couldn’t find one single contradiction in my religion ( scientists and others) so you can dream on and remain in your bubble of ignorance .
Well it’s no use arguing with a person that has no intention of hearing what others have to say and poking their eyes with aberrations .
@Colin: ‘‘Would you like to see women’s breasts removed without their consent if it would avoid the risk of breast cancer?’’ In this case women’s mammal glandes are a functional part and the removal thing is necessary only if one of them is already infected beyond any chance of healing( this can’t be done as a prevention).
And could you tell me what function does the foreskin play ?
Umm what? Taking drugs, getting tattoos, and “other stupid practices” are voluntary. You’re out of your damn mind if you think chopping off a newborn’s foreskin is voluntary or even compares to actions grown adult take.
And once again, you make practically no sense. There are contradictions in every religion. Must be cold in Romania… come back when your IQ is above room temperature – Hell, I’ll even let you use the Fahrenheit scale
@Spatterson: ‘‘Umm what? Taking drugs, getting tattoos, and “other stupid practices” are voluntary.’’ Even circumcision can be a voluntary act because there is no evidence that a male that wasn’t circumcised will end up in hell.
‘‘There are contradictions in every religion.’’ To be able to make this kind of affirmation one must have their arguments based on an objective morality which Atheists don’t possess .
If everyone would base their ideas on their own common sense ( like Krauss said during a debate) than no one will be correct and no one will be wrong because for example if I say that lying is bad and you say it is good then who is right ?
To be able to say that something is contradictory requires some kind of higher code that can’t be refuted by anyone.
I see you are trying to make fun of me but this time I will refrain from doing the same.
“Even circumcision can be a voluntary act because there is no evidence that a male that wasn’t circumcised will end up in hell.”
Uhh what? What does that even mean?
If the circumcision is voluntary, fine.
Btw, there’s no evidence of hell either.
The human appendix has no function… yet you don’t see babies chopped open and their appendix removed. But but but… their appendix could rupture in the future and kill them. Oh nos!
“I see you are trying to make fun of me”
As Darth Vader would say “all too easy”
The foreskin protects the penis and allows it to be more sensitive. Other than that, the functions, whatever they may be, appear to not be so well understood.
Of course circumcision can be a voluntary act. If somebody wants to remove one of their body parts, then fine. I was only talking about circumcision of babies.
“there is no evidence that a male that wasn’t circumcised will end up in hell”