LingQ to Fluency?

Open Forum
41

Thank you for the kind words. To answer your question about if it is normal what you are doing, and how you are supposed to do it, are also useful questions.

“How” Question: This will actually answer your other questions as well.
Try not to say the English word out loud. This can be difficult, but try to focus on saying the ‘Target Language’ word out loud. If it is Spanish, try to pronounce and say the word in Spanish out loud, and think about the English meaning. Really at the beginning of learning the language, it essentially doesn’t matter, but I think personally one should try to focus on their target language, not using it in relationship to English. Try your best to say it in your head, because here is where your brain is doing the thinking (I know that sounds weird, but that is how I think about it). Your goal is to become proficient in the target language, here being Spanish. I’ll tell you how I approach it, to give you an idea.

  1. I choose the article I am going to read. I open it, and on each page, I click on the words I am unsure of the meaning and try to get a definition attached to this word. I “think” about the meaning and click on the audio of the word so I can hear how it is pronounced. (French was different, as I had no interest in speaking French, but I do this for Chinese). This is how I approach it when I first start the language. When I become a little more proficient with the language and can read fairly smoothly in the language, then I create the LingQ while I am reading it.

Early:
1A) Look at blue words and make them yellow by saying the word in my head, and speaking it out loud in the target language.
1B) Read a sentence at a time, and just try to understand the meaning. You will likely translate it in your head, and that is okay.
1C) When you have finished the entire paragraph on a page provided at LingQ, then try to listen to the audio and follow along with the words as you listen you read.

Later stages after I feel more comfortable:
1A) I read from the beginning trying to just understand all that I can. I don’t try to think of the English meaning of each word. I try to think of what the sentence means. I read it out loud in Chinese (Spanish or whatever language).
1B) Then I listen to the audio alongside of the page as I read along. I might highlight phrases and create a LingQ with the phrase. Focusing on listening to the audio and just using the words to orient my thoughts.

  1. Once all of the blue words are yellow, I then try to read the paragraph in front of me, clicking on my yellow words as needed. I read it out loud in Chinese (for you Spanish), and try to think of what it means in English.

  2. After I read one page by myself in Spanish/Chinese, I then play the audio and pause it when it finishes page that I have read. I read alongside the audio. Ideally, I understand what is being said. If I don’t, then I try to read the English translation of the word that I don’t know. I then click to the next page.

  3. I repeat the process until I finish the article. This allows me to have read the article twice and listened to it once as I finish it for the first time.

  4. Most of the time, I step away from the article if it is long, and read it a little later or the next day and I read it again. What I have noticed, is that I remember what the article is about, and I fly through the article much quicker. I might even listen to the audio alongside it, or repeat steps 2-4. Typically this time around though, I might change the status of some of my LingQs, and highlight phrases and create these LingQs when I read it.

  5. Depending on how interesting the content is, I might read the article a few more times, along with listening to it. Or I might just listen on my own. As I have already read it a few times. Every time I listen, I try to pick up more words and just try to understand it.

  6. This is the hard part though. When you start recognizing that you know some of these words, try not to translate in your head every word. Ideally, just try to think about what the phrase means (the gist of the phrase). You will start off for a long time translating every word in your head, and this is normal, but the goal is to slowly step away from this. Try to focus on the overall content, not every word. Even in my native language, quite often somebody will say a word I don’t know, and I use context to understand the meaning of the phrase. Time will help with this. Avoid reading subtitles on videos, and instead, focus on just enjoying the language. You will get better, and I promise you (I didn’t believe this until it happened with me as well, even though everybody told me it would, I still doubted), you will begin to see that you don’t need to translate every word. You will get better, and before long, you will start to understand more of the language. However you do this, in time you will slowly stop translating in your head. You will get better, and don’t be afraid that you are doing it wrong. Guess what, we all did the exact same thing in the beginning, it is only natural.

Anyways I hope this helps.
Best of luck bud. I was trying to help answer your question fully and give you an idea to help relax your worries. If any of this is unclear, I apologize, just let me know and I will try to clarify it.

Sincerely,
Your fellow lingqer
-Cody C.

42

Some people pick those words up by using them. Like asking how you say this and than it sits. My sister is such a type…not in language learning though, but on the piano/any other instrument. She just listened to easy tunes when she was little and started to play it afterwards without forgetting it. Sadly she doesn’t have the backbone to really pracitce. She just jumps around from one instrument to the other and jams on it. If she would be as sirious as I am, she could have made a living of it.

There are those people, who just use it to learn it. Those are the ones, who just drive there and start talking. My father was one of those. One day he wanted to learn Slovenian, so he took us over the border and repeated “Dober dan” and tried to order food by pantomine and once the waiter understood, he helped him out. He repeated that and ordered food for all of us. He got really good at Slovenian.

We once had a student from Albania, who got a scholarship for his violin, and he got fluent just by living here and making friends. He never had any time to actively learn German, hence he played for 6 hours a day.

My cleaning lady started to learn German through films without subtitles…

My english teacher learned lists and lists of vocabulary without context and started out that way.

Another teacher loved grammar drills for teaching English and claimed it would be the most important part of language learning.

So it’s true that you need input, but that doesn’t define how much you need. Some pick it up faster than others. I’m definitely not such a fast learner, because I failed in my french course at uni, but I study quiet well with lingQ. It seems I have to see the words, while they are pronounced and translate them, without looking at them a second time. I even watched “Malcolm in the middle” and started to understand. My self esteem is much, much better now. I’m a visual learner, it seems. I was even able to translate sentences that came to my mind the other day while driving to work.

So, just listen to it and use it in an instant, that’s nothing for me. That’s what I mean by “learning by using the language”. I am more on the passive side.

43

The subjunctive is a linguistic term (I admit I often forget them as well). It is a mood that describes things that are not necessarily real. For example, your wishes, suggestions, opinions, judgments etc. You will use them in “that” clauses/phrases. Example, “I wish that I had owned a 1970 Camaro Z28.” In the past tenses, they use “that” clauses, “wishes,” and in present/future it might be a “desire to do something.”

44

Wow, thank you, Cody. Reading your layout / guidelines is exactly what I needed. I have searched and searched for something to follow. I am very analytical and need some sort of system to follow. I kept getting from others, “to just enjoy the language and it will all click eventually”. Well, that is just it; it’s hard as a beginner to enjoy the language when you aren’t really sure what you are doing. I saved this information you have given and will follow it to a “T”. My wife and I both. It’s also nice to read how you have had success with using this method.

I read your profile and was thoroughly impressed with the goals you set for yourself. Man, that is awesome. Maybe one day I will have that kind of dedication. The only thing I can’t see me doing right now, are the lessons on iTalki. Seems you do those quite a bit. I did download HelloTalk though, and will hopefully find others to converse with as I progress.

I do have one final question, and this is something I have wondered for a very long time. I keep reading where so many are suggesting learning “sentences” instead of individual words… hence the reason Glossika has become such a huge hit with LingQ members and other language learners. I also see where you linked to a YouTube video of a guy saying to ‘do just that’. He advocates learning “phrases” or “sentences” over individual words. I know we learned that way as children, and I see our 2 small children doing just that, every day. They learn sentences and phrases without knowing what the individual words mean. My question is, do you suggest learning this way? It makes complete sense when I think about it. I’ve often wondered if I need “touch” on the vocabulary in a given sentence or phrase, but then focus on remembering the phrases and sentences themselves?

Thanks again for your time and the information…

Kevin

45

Learning styles are bunk. Nobody is a ‘visual’ learner when they are learning their first language.

Everybody would learn Latin grammar if they were forced to do 5 years of real rote learning like public schoolkids used to.

The problem is most people don’t do anything for long enough because of poor attention spans and or boredom.

So somebody will do LingQ style reading for a few weeks, become bored and then decide they’re an ‘aural’ learner. They simply haven’t given it enough time. EVERY person without disorder or disability of some kind can learn through any of the different ‘styles’ if they are engaged for long enough. The problem is engaging someone in something they don’t want to do.

But to say ‘i’m a visual learner’ just means you like doing that more.

46

Thank you very much for your kind words! I would like to think that I would have doubled my known words of have at least reach 25,000!

47

Keep at it and who knows what the possibilities could be. I don’t see why that wouldn’t be the case. Set a number and a target, and strive to reach it.

48

How do you figure nobody is a ‘visual learner’ when learning their first language? You are watching literally everything and trying to connect words with what you see to understand the meaning. not to mention people give you visual clues with hand gestures and pointing to objects to help elaborate on the meaning. Granted you aren’t reading, but once again, I don’t believe that either. You may not be reading when you start learning the language, but even in kindergarten, you start to learn to read which improves your vocabulary and by extension your grammar.

While we all had grammar classes in school the vast majority of people don’t like these classes. I am not saying some do, but I would be willing to bet that most people were like myself and didn’t enjoy them. I do have friends who work in Linguistics, and love grammar, so there are those that do, but cramming in grammar is for most people mind-numbingly boring. I would even argue that those who study grammar have a better handle on the language than those who just read, but that is essentially irrelevant. While I agree that most people can learn through most styles, it doesn’t mean that some people learn better with different methods than others. I believe you are just making a point that people use this as an excuse to say they can’t learn a language (or whatever the subject is), but the fact you like doing something more, kind of supports the point that you are a learner who is a particular type of learner (kinesthetic/tactile, aural, visual, etc.). These learning styles are discovered in early childhood, and teachers who work with children recognize this and the good teachers try to incorporate this into their teaching to supplement this child’s learning. I really don’t see how language is any different. We are all a little bit of all learning styles, which might (keyword is might) explain why we are capable of learning through various different means. That doesn’t discredit though, that different people learn better by another method. Ultimately, your final point is right, the problem is, you have to find the way to engage the learner to learn something they don’t want to do.

You mentioned your wife and French, she was able to learn the language to a proficient level even though she doesn’t read.This made me think of my father. He can speak Japanese, French, and Spanish although none to a very high level. It is proficient. He knows what he needs to know in these languages to be successful in the environment in which he uses them. My father could probably become better at all of these languages if he studied the grammar, or read in the language. But, he doesn’t even do that in English, he hates reading, so why would I expect he would read in any of these other languages? He learns from other means/methods and is to this day one of the most intelligent people I know, regardless if he reads or not. By the way, all of this is to say, he actually wants to learn these languages, he doesn’t read and instead listens to material, and talks with people. So, this may be my bias poking through, but that is why I disagree with your statement that nobody is a visual learner when they learn a first language. I just see too many examples in my own personal life (which is biased I admit) that disagree with that statement. I also don’t believe, that just because we did something in learning our first language as a child, means it is the best method for learning a second or subsequent language. But that is a discussion for another day.

49

Do you have children ? You’ll be surprised at the amount of time they spend not actually paying any attention to you, not least looking at you when you talk.

My point was, yes they get visual input, along with every other kind of COMPREHENSIBLE input, but they’re not ‘visual learners’.

The ‘i only learn by X method’ has been proven demonstrably false numerous times in scientific literature.

It’s an excuse from people who gave up on other methods. There is not a person alive who wouldn’t pick up language if exposed to just audio, or just words, or just TV, if that exposure was comprehensible.

The ‘i only learn when i can visualise stuff’ or ‘i only learn when i can hear something’ is false.

50

Hey, Kevin,
Thank you for reading the profile and my comment. I encountered much of the same issues myself when I first started trying to learn any language. Everybody just assumes that it will click, but it takes practice, and if this can help you avoid some of the pitfalls I encountered, then that makes my day. I can promise you, I have failed more times than succeeded in learning a language, but this method for me (please read that sentence again), has been successful. I hope it works for you as well. When I tried to learn how to draw, how to grapple, or how to learn a language, I always encounter most of the same comment as that one. I have constantly received the same advice that it will just get better, and that doesn’t really help when you are asking for help. I remember when I took Greek in college my professor made it sound like she struggled with the language, and look at her now, but really, she was of very little help. I ended up becoming more intimidated by the language in her class, and I never felt like I was improving, she just made it sound like I did everything wrong. She didn’t teach what made her see any glimmer of success, just drilled us to death and assumed that if you throw enough at the person it will eventually stick. My Hebrew teacher though was like me in school, and she struggled as well with learning languages. I could tell she was sincere and being honest with me because she constantly worked with me. Taught me what made her successful in learning the language, and by extension, it helped. I could see, that I wasn’t the only one who suffered and struggled to learn a language, even though I really wanted to learn the language. I deviate a little bit from her prspective, but it fits a LingQ environment. So, I hope that my method (which is still a little different than hers, but we all must reflect and improve what works for us), will help you as well.

iTalki actually was something I did very heavily the last time I dove into learning Chinese, and it allowed me to be very successful in my language learning, so that is one of the reasons why I wanted to do it this time around. I was taking about 2-3 lessons a week. But, unfortunately, as of right now, I am not making enough money to be able to afford lots of lessons, so I use other means to talk with people, which has also helped. I do believe iTalki is the best tutoring site, as you can find people who have credentials like you wouldn’t believe, to some who just like teaching, and the prices are very reasonable. But, while I set goals to work on the site again, as of right now, I have yet to start back up. Haha. So don’t let that scare you off. The material above will help. Try to at least find a friend (native speaker) to speak with you and work on your pronunciation, as this really needs somebody else’s native ear to help improve your pronunciation.

Sorry for the long messages, but I have so many thoughts, I hope one or two of them help.
Best,
-Cody C.

51

Ftornay is right though. Keep working hard, and it will become easier and more natural though. Consistency is key, and you will improve. These “weird mental contortions” as he says is exactly that.It can be frustrating, and our brain is having trouble figuring out what to do with the language. You’ll get it, just keep at it!

52

No children, on my end, at least not yet. I don’t think I could handle one just yet in my life. Once again though, I agree with what you are saying, nobody learns in only one way, but I also don’t think that was something anybody was arguing.

I think we are arguing a slightly different point which is why we might be disagreeing. A ‘visual learner’ at least how I understand it just means they learn more effectively through visual means. Where has that been “proven demonstrably false numerous times in scientific literature?” Maybe, that we don’t only learn in one way, but that isn’t what the different styles are saying in the first place. It states that a person learns more effectively through that medium.

We have 5 senses (if there are no impairments for the individual) and each of these senses are used to experience the world. These experiences allow us to understand and interpret the world around us, whether this is through visual, auditory, tactile, smelling or taste. The point you seem to be making: we use these different senses to understand what is going on and learn. I don’t believe anybody is arguing that we only use one form of these senses to learn something, in fact quite the opposite.

The point you seem to be stressing is that we all get input from different mediums. This is true, but that doesn’t mean that they are all equal for every learner. Preference or not, the point you mentioned about he likes to learn through reading should speak volumes. Some people like your wife and my father don’t wish to learn that way and are still successful. As you correctly mentioned, we use many of these different mediums in our daily lives to understand and learn around us, including languages. Even the discussion about a visual learner vs the other learning styles, doesn’t mean that they only use “X” to learn. (A good example off the top of my head, a person can’t just watch someone swim and learn how to swim, they need to actually do it). It just means that learning through visual means allows the person to have more comprehensible input. The other methods are also important for learning and are being used at the same time, but the visual method for that person is what is putting in more overall comprehensible input.

Maybe this helps clears up some of the confusion.

And I want to point out, once more, I agree, I believe most people are just lazy, and use any excuse necessary to prove they can’t learn a language. This is not what the above post was saying though.

53

Thank you for that information, Cody, but you forgot to answer my main question, about the sentences :-).

54

I have 7 children and I’ve seen that they prefer to learn visually. I was/am the same way. I actually gave up on many other learning methods, because I found them more difficult. In fact, I would have failed elementary school if the guidance counselor hadn’t recognized this. Because of her, I was able to pass through school, as the methods the teachers used were not what I needed. I’m sure if I were forced into a situation where I had to be an auditory learner only, then I would learn, but alas, I have had choices. I find I learn much easier with visuals than I do with other methods.

55

In relation to the sentences, sorry about that haha. For right now, in your early period, try to learn phrases more so than sentences. Highlight with LingQ a phrase usually with a subject (noun) and a verb. Just try to get a few words in the phrase this way you can get an idea of what the word means in context.

I suggest you learn that way, but quite honestly, it is going to be difficult to do so in the beginning. I tend to still learn words more so than phrases/sentences when I read. If you can control your brain enough to learn the phrases more so than the words themselves, then, by all means, do it. It will benefit you more so in the long run for a couple of reasons. 1) You are learning context and how to use the word which is surprisingly difficult without learning a phrase. 2) You begin to learn the grammar subconsciously. For those reasons, I would suggest it, but I know I have trouble focusing on phrases when I am reading.

When I was in China though, learning a phrase was much easier as I was surrounded by true context. When I kept hearing over and over the phrase for when people are trying to sell you something (or be your guide or whatever) and you turn them down, well, it was easier to use it in context because I was surrounded by it. I even have some funny stories that popped up out of a result of it.

To sum it up, if you can, absolutely! But, learning words is better than nothing. At least you can communicate.

56

I should also mention, that I have in many ways picked up new grammatical structures not from memorizing them, but just reading that structure several times. I didn’t even create a LingQ associated with it, or intentionally try to learn it. I have just tried it in sentences, and ironically I did it correctly due to exposure. So, don’t think too much about it. If you can, that is great and probably best. But if you don’t, you will still be successful.

57

Thank you for that advice, ftornay…

58

Sorry Kevin but you’re wrong.

https://www.google.fr/search?q=learning+styles+debunked&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=g66wWrmCAsWAgAbMjaOYCQ

Yale, The Guardian, Teacher Magazine Australia and Neuroscience research journals say you’re wrong. Amongst others.

59

You simply preferred a different method because you found it more engaging. That’s not a learning style that’s just doing what you like instead.

60

What are you talking about? Steve makes way more videos about how to learn a language, CC almost never makes such videos still you say ‘he is screaming…’ And his parameters are very high…