Although to some extent you can compare any practical skill to language learning, I think that the often heard “learning a language is like learning an instrument” meme is not really useful.
From what we know about the brain, linguistic and musical centres are in different hemispheres, although there is always overlap. On a more practical level, knowing a language is much more multifaceted than knowing how to play an instrument. When learning a language, it is not enough to know how to speak, we must read. There are many great musicians who do not know how to read music. Also language based communication is much more pervasive than music. It takes place all day, with practically everyone. Music is much more premeditated in practice. Although music fanatics may be consumed by music, someone using a language pretty much has to be consumed by the language. Finally, there is a qualitative difference in the standards of success in language and in music. If you know the correct note and you play it badly, you are not playing music. If you know a word and you have pronounced it intelligibly, you are good to go. Related to this is that, when learning a language, especially one that has a sound palette that is a subset of your current sound palette, you don’t need learn “to speak” per se, while when picking up a new instrument, you do need to learn how to make a sound. Any other opinions?
Have you heard about the triune brain? As far as I can remember, the actual part of your brain used for memory and emotions (so in this case music) is different from the part which deals with language, so you’re right. Language learning is not like learning a muiscal instrument qt all.
How about a new meme: “language learning is like learning to swear”? I don’t remember ever consciously sitting down and memorising useful phrases to shout on hitting my thumb with a hammer.
Although to some extent you can compare any practical skill to language learning, I think that the often heard “learning a language is like learning an instrument” meme is not really useful.
I don’t understand very well what doo wants to say but would like to add my comments.
I think the process of learning languages has some similarity with that of exercising an music instrument. Of course, it is not the same. (Sorry, I exaggerated too much yesterday).
For me, I always repeat sentences again and again just like exercising each phrase of a music piece. When I read aloud them, I pay attention to many points, for example accents, intonations, breathings, accentuation, pauses, omissions, liasons, etc in order that everyone understand my recitation or my talk without stress. Unfortunately it still is difficult to master it. Sorry that’s my viewpoint. I agree with others’ methods of learning.
If you know a word and you have pronounced it intelligibly, you are good to go. Related to this is that, when learning a language, especially one that has a sound palette that is a subset of your current sound palette, you don’t need learn “to speak” per se, while when picking up a new instrument, you do need to learn how to make a sound. Any other opinions?
When I was a musician, my music instrument seemed to me a part of my body. I was sending my message to people with it. Good musicians must be eloquent like public speakers. It is true that the perfect performance is necessary in the world of music. I always aim for the perfect, but I believe the artificial perfect performance is less impressive than what is performed eloquently, a little incorrectly.
I suppose the keyword here is “is like” and not “identical too”. Yes the brain has separate compartments for most every function, but that does not mean that certain functions cannot be “like” others. Like dillemme points out, one learns languages much in the same way they learn an instrument: by lots and lots of practice, by listening to others who play better than you do, and by taking in constructive criticism towards ones own ability. In that sense it is very much like learning to play an instrument.
If you take in the ideas of Music Theory, reading notes, etc. than it is even more like playing an instrument than just the practicing and development aspect: one knows that the brain is more accustomed to processing a song in the key of E if the melodies are also played in the same key; going out of order or out of key is not transmitted very well to others even if there are a few who may take to the sound and enjoy it. The same can be said about languages: arranging words in the proper way to the proper “key” in order to communicate effectively with others.
I’ve never been bothered by analogies or sayings like this, in fact I think they are quite helpful: one who is used to learning an instrument but not learning a language will be able to relate what knowledge he does have to the knowledge which he wishes to obtain, thus improving his ability and increasing his motivation. When learning new things it’s always good to relate them to other more common things: many people pick up an instrument, but much fewer pick up a language it seems (at least where I’m from).
I agree. I guess I should have said that it was not especially useful to compare language learning to learning an instrument. I isolate learning an instrument because, in my experience, the analogy is so overused that it has become a canard.
I’m not so sure how similar it is to learning an instrument per se, but I think learning a language is very similar to learning a new style of music. And, for someone who learned to play in a particular style, learning a new style well is a lot like learning a new language. An Italian learning French would be like a metal guitarist learning flamenco guitar, but an Italian learning Chinese would be like a metal guitarist learning to be a jazz drummer. In my experience anyway.
dooo, what is it that you have with the "I think"s? This isn’t the first time I hear you complaining about this.
We’re not scientists, we use “I think” as “I experienced, I heard, I saw, I believe…”. We are not writing a thesis, just commenting / babbling on a forum!
Thanks for your opinion, Berta. And for backing it up a little. Thesis/scientist vs babbling is a false dichotomy. There is such a thing as logically defending your views without become a world renowned expert on the subject.
Dooo, I’ll refrain from saying what I’d like to say, and just say “No.” If you don’t understand what I was getting at, then feel free to ask a question. I said what I think based on my experience.
I think any musicians on the forum will understand what I’m getting at. If you’re not a musician, then it doesn’t have much relevance to you anyway. If you are a musician, and you still don’t understand, then I don’t know what to say to you.
I think there are two types of forum posters in the world, people who communicate taking their audience into account, and those who just like to hear themselves talk. I won’t bother backing this up.
Instrumental music and vocal music have a lot of things in common. Singers use their organs as musical instruments. Vocal music is closely related to language.
Not surprisingly I think I am in the first group. Making an argument in addition to stating opinions requires you to engage in a mental dialog with the likely audience. As a response, a contrary opinion without an argument, no matter how elaborately expressed, just smacks of “contrariness”.
“An Italian learning French would be like a metal guitarist learning flamenco guitar, but an Italian learning Chinese would be like a metal guitarist learning to be a jazz drummer.”
Bortrun, that is a great analogy, I’d never thought of it that way! I’m also a musician, and in my experience (uh oh), I’ve found that music itself is like verbal communication, i.e. your ideas, but with each instrument you have to “speak” a little differently. I play several instruments, and each one requires a different approach, and ideas come out in another form, just like another language. But the end result is still me communicating my musical ideas.
Playing music, for me, has always been more like speaking than anything else, especially when improvising. The more you’ve mastered the mechanics of a particular instrument, the higher your ability to “speak” and sound like yourself, the easier it is to communicate your ideas. And going from guitar to drums and still being able to speak well is definitely more of a stretch than, say, guitar to mandolin!
I think that in many ways, language use/learning is exactly like playing music.
(not that everyone listened to MY parents)