Language , human migration and human conflict

Open Forum
41

I never said it was only about Syria. I clearly said, “Let’s just stick to the people fleeing from Syria for a moment.”

Okay, so you’re not going to answer my question or offer any numbers whatsoever, despite asserting that it’s A FACT which no serious commentator would dispute that a certain number of the people in question are economic migrants.

Great! I can just as easily assert that it’s A FACT that, out of the millions and millions of people fleeing, a certain number of the people in question are unskilled laborers. Goodness knows we don’t need any more unskilled laborers around. But with no statistical data, it is just as equally irrelevant.

So let me ask you just one more question:

What do these reported cases of people with fake Syrian passports have at all to do with the millions and millions of actual Syrians fleeing war-torn Syria?

42

Oh boy. I was away from this forum for quite a long while - and this thread has kind of reminded me why! :wink:

“Terrorists”, “criminals”, “unskilled labour”…these are all things YOU are throwing in here. But I’m not going to play the straw man game. Life is too short for that. And I’m not here to be cross examined on refugee statistics. I’ve already said I don’t presume to be any authority on that. Try google maybe?

But you know, Brucenator buddy, if you want to believe that every single person hammering on the metaphorical gate of Europe right now (and note it is EUROPE that is on the line here) is fleeing in mortal fear from Assad or ISIS or Russian bombs or whatever else - go for it. You have, so to speak, my permission. Peace.

(From my side the exchange is now closed)

43

Yeah, I started to say “freckles” but changed it to “unskilled labor” because it is just as irrelevant. And I mentioned “criminals” and “terrorists” because these are things I’ve actually heard people say. I never once said “every single person,” but you were the one who initially said “a certain number of these people are probably not war refugees” as if “a certain number” means anything. Never mind your irrational fear of “a situation where in the future a possible majority of people in Europe are Muslims.” You should definitely read the book recommended above by lawntek. That will be sure to stoke your fears even higher.

We already live in a world where the majority of people irrationally believe in a mythological sky daddy, and people of all religions naively open the door to fundamentalists because they are perceived to be “good Muslims” or “good Christians” or whatever. Until they find out they’re not. And then they say they’re not “true Christians” or “true Muslims.” I guess that’s why there are seemingly countless denominations of the same freaking religion.

(So, same here, man. This exchange is now closed, because that last question that you couldn’t answer was rhetorical. Obviously these “reported cases of people with fake Syrian passports who are not from there at all” have diddly squat to do with the millions and millions of actual Syrians fleeing war-torn Syria).

44

In letzter Zeit bin ich sehr oft in Wien Westbahnhof gewesen, nicht um die Flüchtlinge zu helfen, sondern weil ich von Westbahnhof nach Graz fahre, um meine Freundin zu besuchen. Ich habe deswegen die Gelegenheit gehapt, zu sehen wie die Flüchtlinge sich benehmen. Als ich da war, gab es immer viele Flüchtlinge, aber im Gegensatz zu was ich in den Nachrichten gesehen habe, gab es kein Chaos. Die Geschäffte waren noch offen und alles hat normal ausgesehen. Es gibt nur einige kleine Unterschiede. Es gibt jetzt einige Krankenwagen, die ständig im Parkplatz stehen, um die Flüchtlinge medizinische Behandlungen anzubieten, und es gibt viele neue Toilletten neben den Bahnsteige.

Normaleweise will ich nicht über Politik schrieben. Ich meine nicht, dass ich mich für Politik nicht interessiere. Ich will normaleweise nicht darüber schreiben oder reden, weil ich immer das Gefühl habe, dass ich fast nichts davon verstehe, egal wie oft ich darüber lese. Aber ich glaube nicht, dass die Leute, die im Internet starke Meinungen äußern, im Durchschnitt mehr davon verstehe als ich, und es gefällt mir, ihre Meinungen zu lesen, so vielleicht wird ich versuchen, meine Meinung hier zu schreiben, wenn ich genüg Zeit dafür habe.

45

Goed gezegd!

46

Weißt du Colin, was mich geradezu fasziniert sind die üblichen Ansichten von liberalen und links gerichteten Leuten in Europe und Nord Amerika über den Islam. Ich finde, diese Leute haben eine Doppelmoral. Sie sind im Allgemeinen gegen Religion - manchmal sogar auf lauter und spöttischer Weise dagegen. Normalerweise sind sie auch für Frauenrechte, für Schwule, für Redefreiheit, usw. Sehr schön. Kritisiert man aber islamische Gesellschaften diesbezüglich, da wird man sofort als (im besten Fall) “irrational” beschimpft. Im schlimmsten Fall sei man natürlich ein verkappter Racist…

Es heißt, die Bösen in diesen Gesellschaften seien bloss ein paar “Fundamentalisten” und die meisten Menschen seien ganz nett, tolerant, mäßig, und so. Und vielleicht stimmt dies auch - zumindest bis zu einem gewissen Punkt. Diese Länder sind doch in vielen Fällen von Diktatoren regiert: was die Mehrheit der Leute denken, kann also egal sein. Aber was haben die Leute in Ägypten z.B. gemacht, als sie eine freie Wahl hatten? Eine Mehrheit von ihnen wollten (anscheinend) radikale Islamisten an die Macht bringen! So musste man (mit voller Unterstützung der US-Regierung) einen Militärdiktator wieder einsetzten. Na ja.

Natürlich sind die meisten Muslime gute Menschen. Ich habe das Gegenteil ganz bestimmt nie behauptet. Aber eine gewisse Zahl (um das Lieblingswort von unserem Freund ‘Bruce’ zu verwenden) von ihnen haben schon ziemlich radikale Ansichten. Auch wenn es sich nur um eine relativ kleine Minderheit der in Europa angesiedelten Muslime handeln würde, könnten sie trotzdem große Schwierigkeiten verursachten. (Übrigens nicht zuletzt für Atheisten…)

47

@Colin

BTW: I know you’re not a fan of the Daily Mail, but this is a great comment by an NHS professional, pointing up the particular hutzpah and hypocrisy of some celebrity liberals on this issue.

Of course it’s very easy for a person to indulge in self-righteous preaching and to call for the country and its services to be overloaded by zillions of migrants - if he/she is a millionaire who can (and does) buy a way to the front of the line.

48

I don’t dislike the Daily Mail any more than most other newspapers in Britain. I don’t in general follow newspapers, but instead follow individual people and don’t pay much attention to which newspapers they write in. Most of all, I like Peter Hitchens and George Monbiot.

I don’t know what to think about Britains decision to take only a small number of refugees. The problem I have with this is that it seems to me that Britain, more than any other country in Europe, is responsible for the driving these people to come to Europe.

49

Yeah, I like Peter Hitchens too - he’s a solid fair-minded guy with far more nuanced opinions than he is generally credited with.

As for the other issue: I think you’re right…well…depending on what we understand by “Britain”…?

Really it is the stupidity and incompetence of British politicians which has contributed so much to this situation. But they and people like them (as alluded to in the article I linked to) are NOT the ones who bear the brunt of mass immigration!

For example:

David Cameron’s children are never going to be sitting in an oversized class where progress is slowed because the teacher is struggling to explain things to children who don’t speak English very well. (The children of rich people will, of course, be at an expensive private school.)

Tony Blair and his family are not going to be sitting for hours in a corridor at a crowded hospital waiting to be seen by over-stretched NHS staff. (They would - one way or another - go straight to the front of the line.)

Politician X or Celebrity Y is not going to be competing with migrants for jobs. They are not going to have trouble finding accommodation near to where they work…etc…

(BTW This is why I have a special loathing and contempt for rich liberal types who try to preach to people who are much worse off than they are. I find such people utterly nauseating, in fact.)

50

Of course you are right that the people in Britain who are most responsible for the refugee crisis are not the people who will be suffering if 100,000 refugees are allowed into Britain. It would be great if the refugees could be more fairly distributed when they arrive. I would start with housing 10 families in David Cameron’s house.

51

Prinz_Schtik,
The reason why the left defends the Muslim world is not because we have a “double standard” regarding Islam as a religion. The reason is that Muslims are oppressed by the Western world, through our support for dictatorships, military interventions, etc. Yes, people have done terrible things in the name of Islam–but unfortunately those things are being used to justify all manners of cruelty against people living in those countries. The widespread sentiment goes something like, “They’re mostly terrorists, they have backwards beliefs regarding women, they behead people for shaving their beards, so it’s mostly okay if our government blows them up with flying robots, I won’t even blink if I read that X amount of people got killed in a US drone strike, and if I hear that civilians died, too bad, but they shouldn’t have been standing next to those evil bad people.” You see what I mean?

When colonialists entered Africa, North/South America, it was the same spiel, “These people are heathens and savages, therefore anything we do is fine, we’re the good guys.”

52

The issue is what “defending the Muslim world” means in practice. Okay, I don’t know such a great deal about the situation in America. I suppose it may be that things are different there? But here in Britain there are certainly people of the Left who associate themselves with (for example) groups or individuals who are openly anti-semitic, or who support the subjugation of women. It is a double standard - if these people weren’t Muslims then different rules would apply. BTW the people in question are often not even from the “Muslim world” in any very obvious sense. Often they are second and third generations of immigrant children - people born and raised in Britain.

I agree that awful things have been inflicted on Muslim countries - the Iraq war being only the most egregious example. Like very many “ordinary” people in Britain I never endorsed or defended those actions. On the contrary I was always firmly opposed to it.

Frankly it pisses me off when people assume or imply that I might approve of drone strikes on civilians, etc. I damned well don’t and I never have.

53

I think, lack of job encouraging people to settle in an another country. Also cause zones of war and conflicts. The responsibilities of the receiving countries is very important for the refugees . Their future is between hand’s politics .

54

Upon rereading, my post seemed a bit hostile–please excuse me if it seemed I was suggesting that you yourself endorse those things, I was simply referring to what I feel is an unfortunate attitude of indifference among the general Western public. (Speaking mainly, as you suggest, from my own experiences in America.) I myself was indifferent in this way until quite recently.

I agree that cruelty and intolerance is never acceptable, even if someone from a disadvantaged group propagates it. Do many people in the Muslim world have opinions on things like Women, freedom of speech, etc. that we in the Western world find disturbing? Absolutely. All cultures and especially traditional cultures bear the burden of extraordinarily cruel beliefs and practices. (For instance, the stain of racism that persists even still in America.) And I think it is condescending, in a way, for the left to wash over iniquities in Muslim society in the way that you described.

That said, my intention was to answer what I saw as the question inherent in your earlier post in German, which I thought was an interesting question: Why does the left seem to ignore the intolerant religious attitudes of Muslims while at the same time violently disparaging those of say, white evangelical Christians in the American south?

To that, my answer would be, it’s less about the “objective” truth and more a matter of strategy. That’s why, for instance, the left doesn’t spend its time criticizing the behavior of minority gang members, people on welfare,etc–poor people need all the help they get. To be “on the left” is basically to be critical of power and hierarchy. So the further down the “ladder of power” that a person/group is, the less acceptable it is to criticize them.

But, as you suggest, there might very well be a bind there for the left–there often is–because the oppressed can also be oppressors in turn. Men of color can be sexist, for instance, poor people can be racist, and so on. And while the Islamic world in general is disenfranchised within global capitalism, Islam as an institution oppresses lots of people too. Kind of a tough one for leftists.

55

It’s cool T-Bone - you make good intelligent points. (I guess I was being a bit sensitive because I had another person higher up on this thread who misconstrued an earlier post of mine, and put out some straw men, etc.)

Anyway, I agree with your last paragraph entirely. There are folks like Muslims, people of colour, native Americans, etc, who have suffered discrimination (and still do in many cases), yet who can themselves sometimes be guilty of discriminating against women, homosexuals, etc.

So I think we agree that these things are not cut and dried.