But then America is also the country were the blatantly provocative plan to build a mosque adjacent to ground zero in New York seems to have official blessing. Again scary.
I agree with Blindside. I would prefer to see more level headed, secular opposition to the increasing power of government bureaucracies, apocalyptic ideologies and religious movements.
I am a humanist. I believe in people, in individuals, and in the need for people to act decently to their fellow citizens not in the name of some god, or ideology, but because in a society where people respect each other, life is better for most people.
“If we remember the cases of witch hunting, religious fanatics are more antagonistic than atheists to religious freedom, by extension, to intellectual freedom.”
Are you referring to the Salem trials or even earlier in Europe? That was before the American Revolution. If you are referring to modern witch hunting in other parts of the world, I have only read about this.
I agree that some people (I don’t like the term “religious fanatics”) are violently intolerant of the beliefs of others, but we can look at two very large countries in the twentieth century where atheism was the de facto religion and there was very little religious freedom and stifled intellectual freedom, imo. I cannot agree with you that atheists are less antagonistic than “religious fanatics” to religious freedom-perhaps some of each group are equally antagonistic.
No Mait, the countries you referred to did not have atheism as their de facto religion. They had Communism as their ideology, and in the name of that ideology suppressed all kinds of freedoms, including religious freedom. This is because they wanted to control what people thought and did not want competing organizations. Most atheists are not members of the Communist party nor in favour of totalitarian government.
Most atheists support freedom of thought including religious freedom. However, many object to the privileged position of organized religion in society.
“As to tolerance: Do you think tolerance is telling a gay couple they cannot marry because someone in an old book has written that some higher being we don’t know exists disaproves of that”
Friedemann,
It isn’t a matter of tolerance. I believe each state has the right to decide this issue based on the will of the people. Whether it should even be brought up for a vote is another matter.
If you were truly interested in human rights (indeed the right to exist) of gay people, you would turn your efforts toward the countries where homosexuals are really persecuted and ask your questions there.
The US is a big easy target for you, isn’t it? The nutty Fred Phelps…the late Jerry Falwell…these are not leading conservatives- Pat Robertson fits that label to a certain extent (reportedly he does charity work in China, btw); even if he says some questionable things he is not advocating violence against homosexuals. He has a right to talk about what he believes based on that old book, as you put it. We allow this in the US.
“Most atheists support freedom of thought including religious freedom. However, many object to the privileged position of organized religion in society.”
I can accept this statement from you. I do not think you are a communist. Of course, my point was to Yutaka-san and the use of “more”.
Of course it is a matter of tolerance because the public opinion is at least shaped by deep seated religious beliefs. There are no medical or other rational arguments against living openly a homosexual life. So the argument in the US in the end is of course a religious/ethical one.
I am of course outraged at what they do in other countries to homosexuals, countries such as Afghanistan, Iran or Saudi Arabia to name just a few where homosexuals have been put to death for what they are.
I am equally critical of certain circumstances elsewhere in the world that call my attention, such as in my temporary home China or my home country Germany for that matter. I have good friends in the US, I admire the innovative power of the US, its rich contemporary music culture, and so many other things about this country. There are also aspects that I am critical of and one of these is the topic of this thread.
you can pick other largely atheistic states (states in which the influence of christianity is diminishing or almost vanishing) for reference such as Germany, France, Denmark or Sweden. I agree with Steve, atheism was not the reason why the Sowjet block was a suppressive regime, it was of course totaliarism and communism. Hitler wasn’t evil because he was an atheist (in fact, he was a catholic) but because of his hateful ideology which in act bears some resemblance to some religious fanatics.
“There are no medical or other rational arguments against living openly a homosexual life”
Friedemann,
I must respectfully disagree with you concerning the absence of medical arguments. However, I risk shocking and offending members if I go into medical detail about this. Homosexual men often have specific medical issues. This includes people in monogamous, active relationships as well as those in open relationships with multiple partners.
The argument, of course, doesn’t apply to people who are attracted to those of their own sex, but not sexually active.
“Of course it is a matter of tolerance because the public opinion is at least shaped by deep seated religious beliefs”
But, it is my country, Friedemann, not yours. We do it our way. If a majority of people with deep-seated religious beliefs choose not to have gay marriage, that’s what happens. The opinions of Europeans shouldn’t inform our decisions (although Mr. Obama may disagree with me). That makes us weak. If we agree, we agree. If we don’t agree, that’s our choice.
Thank-you for mentioning your awareness of what is going on in other countries. I had to believe you knew about this, but I wasn’t sure. Yes, I know that you were responding in regard to the US because of the topic here. I wonder how frank I can be with you before the system throws me out, lol.
Mait, the system will not throw you out unless you start spamming people on their walls.
Friedemann, the countries you mention are not atheistic states. In those countries atheism is not a part of the governing ideology, which was the case in communist countries. In fact the Christian religion is a strong component of the prevailing culture.
In most Western countries most people have no issue with homosexuals living their lives as they see fit. However, opinions are very much divided on whether the definition of that dominant and fundamental social institution of marriage should be changed to accommodate homosexual couples.
I don’t think Hitler was a true Catholic, lol. Maybe he had the gloss of some religious upbringing, but he obviously failed to understand the teachings of Christ and implement them.
Hitler is but one person, there were many personalities within that government. Some people were probably patriotic, some bonvivants along for the power, the food and the ride (Goering, maybe), some artistic people happy for a regular job (Speer?), but it’s too easy, Friedemann, too easy to have fun bashing the national socialists and I would do no better than Yutaka bringing up witch hunts or atheists who talk about the inquistion (what a show!) except for the fact that this period of history is still in the memory of our grandparents, parents or older relatives.
Steve,
Thanks. I haven’t spammed anyone. I was tossed out of the forum three times when I tried to reply to posters on another thread. I mean, I hit “post” and the posts did not appear.
"I must respectfully disagree with you concerning the absence of medical arguments. However, I risk shocking and offending members if I go into medical detail about this. Homosexual men often have specific medical issues. This includes people in monogamous, active relationships as well as those in open relationships with multiple partners. "
I can’t think of any activity practiced by homosexuals that is not also practiced by heterosexuals.
@ytk301 in answer to your question “Does the ‘alienated class of Americans’ belong to the vanishing middle class or not?” The answer is yes. I’d be careful though, because it isn’t so much about the loss of income as the increase in governmental power that we feel is the cause of the economic crisis.
@ytk301 yes Glen Beck is a comedian. He admits his ignorance and knows he is a just expressing the anger and fear that many ‘alienated’ Americans feel. He is even starting to read books and quoting them on air to provide some kind of guidance. Bless his heart. It is a sign of this country’s intellectual bankruptcy that we have nowhere else to go. The New York Times and the Huffington Post would just direct us back to our government for help which we alienated Americans feel is the problem. That is as others have said the ‘sickening’ part because Beck doesn’t have the intellectual foundation to support his critical message. All he has are appeals to historical myths, emotion and God.