I’m a long time user of LingQ but I ask this question to to inquire into what may be the minimum effective dose to really begin to get somewhere in a language when you don’t have much time?
And about how much time or how many LingQ’s/sentences a day that would make an SRS flashcard study not needed?
I’ve immersed massively in my Spanish and as I’m more and more solidly in an advanced level, I’m working on my German and French but don’t have time for mass immersion with these two languages, so I was using the flashcards in LingQ to help. But I also dislike flashcard study massively, although it is helpful as I have terrible short term memory.
With LingQ i really just enjoy putting it in sentence mode and intensely going over sentences synced with audio or visual timestamps while forming LingQ’s.
So if I were to stop with the flashcard study would I have to really up my intensive sentence work in LingQ? I really have a hard time trusting the natural SRS for new languages. The natural SRS works for my Spanish since I’m advanced and can go through large amounts of it in a small period of time.
I remember Steve saying that the sweet spot is when the proportion of unknown words is around 15%.
If such ideal materials are available, I think there’s no need to rely on artificial SRS.
However, in the early stages of language learning, the question is whether such materials can be consistently found.
I can’t say for sure as it depends on the situation, but I think it’s necessary to first learn around 1,000 to 2,000 words.
I also think that repeatedly listening to the audio of previously studied materials is effective.
Personally I don’t find flascards to be necessary in any case. It might feel like you are learning faster with them, but the way I see it it’s more like zero sum game. To do flashcards you are not doing something else. It might feel like you are just repeating words that you know and not learning anything when you do comprehensible input, but every repetition of known words solidifies your knowledge and gives you more context for the unknown words. In spanish I’m still learning new words even if mostly unknown words don’t repeat that often. But because the context is clear it’s easier to get grasp even if they repeat sporadically. So the key might be to have good material that is adapted to your level. I resently borrowed adapted books in swedish which did have unknown words often enough, but sentences were kept simple so that it didn’t confuse. As for time, I would say no matter what style of study you do, you would need on average an hour a day to make it worthwhile, but more would be better.
Half an hour a day is already sufficient imho. However, I would assume the relation between the time spent per day and the progress made is nonlinear, so that doubling the time spent boosts your progress by more then doubling it. At least that has been my perception during the times where I was able to invest much more time per day.
I wouldn’t give a lot on that number, as it highly depends on the language. The material I am using has usually around 25~35% unknown words. I’d say the material is good if you can read it at a speed that it doesn’t become tedious. The amount of unknown words shouldn’t be so high that you’ve forgotten the meaning of the first word in the sentence you had to look up by the time you’ve reached the end of the sentence. What percentage this correlates to one has to find out himself and may differ depending on language, text type and the level you are at in that language.
I had the same impression when I went from 30 to 60 minutes of German a day.
My French is B2 or higher and I use input with about 10 % or less unknown words. I have a good vocabulary. My German is B1 and I am using input with a large amount of unknown words, maybe in your range e.g. 33 % unknown, but it can be less. I find input with 10 % unknown words hard to find, and when I do find some, I get bored as it is tedious. I prefer more unknown words, but for me the grammar has to be B1. In other words, I can learn new words more easily than grammar. It is more the level that matters. By that I mean that both the grammar and the kind of words must be near my level i.e. straightforward.
As regards SRS, Anki in my case, I use it and feel that it is very beneficial, but only ten to fifteen minutes a day for each language. And in general I prefer using sentences rather than words. I find that it helps with both vocabulary and grammar. But if someone hates using it, perhaps they are not benefiting, and should just use input. SRS is only useful if you pay attention i.e. notice.
I mainly read French novels here on LingQ, for pleasure and to keep from losing that language again, after first becoming fairly fluent when I lived in France 40+ years ago. I usually do that for 1 to 2 hours a day, rather than watching TV, etc.
I also studied Spanish briefly 30 years ago and then again 25 years ago, and I’m trying to get that back and build on it. I do grammar and vocabulary exercises for Spanish on 3 other paid websites, as well as reading the language daily here on LingQ for maybe 30 to 60 minutes a day.
So far I’ve been able to find reading material in that language that I enjoy and that is appropriate to my level, while still making me stretch a bit. (I can do a lot of fairly accurate guessing while reading Spanish, based of my knowledge of French and a little Italian.)
Right now I’m trying to make sure that I don’t overdo it and burn myself out, because I used to read a lot more here on LingQ. Some days my brain can handle more than others, and I still feel like a beginner in spite of the hours I put in,
Thanks all.
I go back and forth with the pros and cons about a natural SRS vs flashcards. Especially when newer to a language. To be clear, I use LingQ specifically for intensive study so I can spend the rest of my time listening and watching comprehensible input (I don’t real extensively in a language until I’m at an intermediate level).
It is really working just using LingQ, I think there’s a part of me that forgot just how patient I had to be with the process to get to my advanced level in Spanish.
While were’e on this topic, there’s one major bug in a flashcard SRS system that a learner may not experience until a relatively advanced stage:
It doesn’t measure the weight of the importance of the word/phrase/grammar structure in relation to a person actually using and living the language. It just measures how familiar you are with the word. For example, if I’m using anki and I keep having to repeat the word for let’s say “shoe laces” over and over again, what evidence is there that this word is worth beating into my head over others? I think this is why Matt from Matt vs Japan swore off anki at least for a time when he found he was using it to control his knowledge rather than the leap of faith of the natural SRS.
I read about 500 words of French. Slow progress/ reminders.
I target reading 3000 words of Greek. Noticeable progress every 100,000 words on a hard language and very hard for me.
I don’t use SRS.
I haven’t really kept track, but I’ve read a lot of older stuff, like Verne, Dumas, Voltaire, Hugo, Flaubert, the Lupin stories by Maurice Leblanc, Guy de Maupassant, Saint-Exupéry, and a bunch more. I’ve also read old books that have been translated into French.
LingQ has some in their library with accompanying audio:
You can also find the texts on sites like Project Gutenberg (gutenberg.org) and decent audio on sites like LibriVox.org and litteratureaudio.com. YouTube has some French audiobooks, as well as old radio plays and that kind of thing.
You can upload texts to LingQ and use AI/TTS to create robotic audio to go with them, or upload audio files and LingQ will use AI to transcribe texts to go with those. LingQ also has AI that will simplify stories that will theoretically convert old fashioned writing into something easier to understand, but I’ve never tried that feature.
The bare minimum I’d say you could study per week as a beginner is perhaps one hour. It’s not what I’d recommend though due to the likelihood that you’ll quit due to becoming demotivated by how slow your process would be. 30 minutes per day on average (3.5h per week) is a solid amount of time to put in as a beginner and you’ll see gains. One hour per day on average (7h per week) as a beginner would be great, if you can do it. You’ll see very clear progress over the months.
As a side note: you don’t necessarily need to study a particular language every day. Another not uncommon schedule of study, especially if you are studying multiple languages, is to spend every other day on a different language.
Whether or not you have much time to learn is a matter of priorities. It’s up to you on what you prioritise. Spending time with family, friends, work, volunteering, other hobbies is completely fine. Be clear with yourself how you want to prioritise these activities then don’t feel guilty by your choice.
Maybe one way to think of it is that digital SRSes didn’t exist before SuperMemo in 1985. People learnt languages before this. They also learnt languages before the Leitner system was invented in 1972.
I found in the long run, consistently beats intensity.
There are times when I went on binge sessions of 4 hours a day but some days I didn’t do anything.
Over the months, I’ll find that 30-60 minutes a day was the sweet spot. Half reading/half listening. It’s like going to the gym; set a routine and adjust accordingly and play around a bit.
Until a few months ago I was spending about 30 minutes every day using LINGQ for Russian. It certainly improved my comprehension, but in terms of ‘production’, nothing at all was sticking. My intuitive feeling is that, unless one supplements LINGQ with a significant amount of authentic language practice (eg with Italki), it is not possible to make real progress. At least, that applies to me. BTW, if you are focused on only one language and you are ‘in for the long haul’ with LINGQ, consider buying the lifetime option (about USD 220). The payback is less than two years. They don’t publicise it much, but ask and you will find.
Thanks Sockdoll, that is a great link. LINGQ has so many possibilities, I’m not sure how to find them all. By entering RU instead of FR, I was able to get that for Russian content. Merci de nouveau.
Comprehension is the basis for production. Though, you’re right in that no amount of (listening) comprehension is going to make you a fluent speaker, no matter what the comprehensible input purists believe. Steve himself starts hiring an iTalki tutor around 3k-5k Known Words. He’s mentioned it on his YouTube videos a few times.
I’d still say “real progress” is still increasing your compehension abilities though.
15 minutes a day (maybe less). However, you are going to progress slowly (fair warning). Most of my progress in German has probably landed on that figure…definitely about to about 20,000 known words. (I’m now at 30,000). I’ve been at it for 7 years though =). However, I can assure you I have made a lot of steady progress in that time, so you CAN do this. I’ve been thoroughly satisfied and enjoy the process. I did not use SRS at all between about 2000 words known and 30,000.
Around 20,000 words I did start making a conscious effort to get a lot more listening in, as I felt I had neglected that too much during the whole effort. I still feel a lacking in this department (but this may still also be some unfamiliarity with a fair amount of words).
I also have tried recently to add in some SRS (going through word frequency list to pick up things that I either didn’t know, or reinforce words that have given me trouble). I’m also trying to add more speaking into my “studies”. Working on language islands and the like. Suprisingly, despite hardly any speaking practice at all…I have picked up enough that I can communicate if I need to. It’s just really ugly. =)
I’d say nowadays I’m spending about 30 minutes a day or more on language in some form, so progress will still be slow but a little better. Its simply that I don’t have time to go any faster with work, pets, gf.
In short, yes, you can make a ton of progress on 15 min a day. You just have to understand that its going to take quite a few years, but you will progress if you work at it daily. That is the other thing. I do try to do something everyday. Only exceptions may be during vacations or if work/life is particularly stressful.
You could potentially check a word frequency list. Or maybe ask chat gpt if that word is a commonly used word. Or which word(s) are typically preferable to natives, especially as it relates to speaking.
One of the reasons that I did introduce SRS into my studies late in the game is that I felt like I was missing more commonly used words. Most people when speaking are not using particularly fancy words. Those are the ones you want to know. I do think there is a filter or sort in Lingq to identify “importance” of a word. I’m not sure what they base it off of though. Word frequency list can help, chat gpt, language islands. Figure out what words/sentences you would use on a daily basis or in different situations and make sure you know those both passively and actively.
I think I need to specify that when I’m talking about using LingQ for learning, to me it’s just for intensive learning, I’m also spending 30mins-several hours a day listening/watching the language. I use LingQ to make my immersion learning quicker.