How do you increase your efficiency in language learning? Is it even possible?

I remember you mentioning before you found yourself going through French conjugation tables (and doing exercises?) as you were not satisfied with the speed with which input alone was teaching you the lesser frequent conjugations. With this comment and the above one I imagine the analogy of a wrecking ball coming in and destorying a house. Slowly, step-by-step, through trial-and-error, a new house is built. Upon stepping back to view the newly completed house, you realise that it looks exactly the same as the initial house, except with different colour windowsills.

That said, what I do on a daily basis for my language study looks nothing like a language class. It is almost entirely input, but not the ‘Stephen Krashen / comprehensible input’ way. As in, I use translations and/or dictionaries instead of only relying on context to understand unknown words and grammar.

However, I wouldn’t be surprised if you actually converged on the same or similar techniques to those used in language classes. They, too, went through a trial-and-error process over many years by many organisations to reach the techniques they currently use. Unfortunately, their results are mainly diluted by large class sizes and people (children) who don’t want to be there creating distractions. They are, however, quite holistic, in that they often insist on practising the four main skill areas, and you do a large variety of activities (which is much less fragile than relying on only one or two). For instance, on the rare occasion, when I actually don’t procrastinate touching my grammar textbook, I read the explanations and do the exercises (cloze exercises, conjugating verbs, translating sentences, reading out loud, comprehension questions, etc.) and find it very useful and efficient.

What is worth noting is that I consider language classes should be the baseline for efficiency comparisons, because it’s considered the ‘default’ method in our culture/s. It’s what you were previously using to learn a foreign language in school and it’s probably the first thought as how to learn a language by many people. However, when someone decides against going to a language class and instead branches out on their own to learn a language, they download DuoLingo or whatever the latest app/method in fashion is, and their efficiency actually drops. It’s actually lower than the default option! It’s only those who stay with it and use trial-and-error to get out of the valley of uselessness and inefficiency, do they actually increase it, and only with more tinkering do their methods end up surpassing the efficiency of a standard language class, aka the baseline.

@jt23’s point is interesting that he optimises for enjoyment, because he knows himself well enough to know that he’ll lose interest and give up otherwise. I wouldn’t say, I, personally, optimise for enjoyment. It’s an important factor, for sure, but not the only one I’m interested in. I would also like to get to a high level in my languages at a faster speed, so I can enjoy them more. As in, be able to read the great books, watch the classic movies, and chat confidently with native speakers.

As for the way I find my learning strategy, I’d say the number one way I do it is logical reasoning. This is especially the case with the background of knowledge I have attained about language learning, its stages, techniques, etc. over the years. This results in me making more informed and nuanced arguments than I did before. From this, I can consider if a particular adjustment to my technique or a new technique is worth my testing. Then, as @GMelillo, I try out the technique and after some period of time, I evaluate it. I’m not always systematic in this, but sometimes I am. The issue with these evaluations is sometimes there is no particular systematic way I can think of to measure the changes, as language learning is very complex, so often I have to go off some guess, ‘feel’, or intuition. This is especially the case, if you use the new technique with a new language (eg. consider Italian vs. Russian, where you have a new alphabet and much fewer cognates), but also occurs within the same language as you become more efficient with a language, the higher level you become. You somehow have to take these factors in account.

How do you effectively set up language learning trials (experiments)? How do you go about evaluating them? Does anyone have any examples of methods they’ve tested out and discarded as they think the methods didn’t live up to what they thought they would be? How did you come to this decision?

For example, I, too, like @Dominic_Olofsson-Tuisku have used reading speed as a proxy for efficiency for several of my evaluations. Recently, I was interested in seeing how much my reading speed fluctuates, so I took multiple measurements throughout the same book. I didn’t record any other variables, but I could observe the incredibly obvious affects of being tired and mood (affecting ability to concentrate).

6 Likes

As I mentioned, I optimize for enthusiasm and enjoyment. My enthusiasm drives me to learn French and try various learning techniques, some I make up for myself. It’s not just enjoyment.

I tend to emphasize the techniques I enjoy, which for me is reading intensively with LingQ, while taking notes. I review my notes but not with spaced repetition. I also make flash cards of verb conjugations, which I sometimes consult as I read, especially the Big Four – be, do, have, and go. I also listen to French music and watch movies with French subs.

My enthusiasm was high for year and a half. I really banged hard on French for that time. I steadily improved though I often felt my progress wasn’t up to snuff by the standards of some YouTubes I watched.

I’m not as enthusiastic now. I have other things I wish to attend to. But that’s OK. I feel like I’m over the hump. I can read a French novel in two weeks and I’m getting faster. French is now a discipline for me. I know it’s a matter of keeping my head in the language.

So these days I don’t worry about efficiency. I question how much language learners should worry about it.

1 Like

One analogy I use for learning a language is solving a huge jigsaw puzzle.

Sure, there is a best strategy of starting with the corners, then the sides. But after that it’s a long slog and doesn’t much matter where you work or in what order.

2 Likes

Very informative.

For French I use essentially the same method as you. For one hour I listen. For another hour, later in the day, I listen, and study words and phrases I don’t understand. Some phrases go in Anki. I also do ten minutes Anki.

My current routine for German (lower intermediate) is 30 minutes YouTube videos for learners in LingQ, and 30 minutes reading and studying childrens picture books, with some grammar study and sentence construction. I also do 20 minutes Anki. I may move to more sentence construction, and maybe even stop LingQ. My German methodology has been changing quite a bit as I reassess study methods.

That’s an interesting point and it does make sense.

It’s a good point.

I don’t use any formal method to create and evaluate trials. My methodology is very subjective and unscientific, which is not dissimilar to your method. Thus I try something, and after a few weeks or a few months I should have an idea of its worth. My core metric for German is how well I feel that I am learning vocabulary, and to a lesser extend grammar. For French my core goal is to get my comprehension of spoken French to a near native level e.g. understand day to day conversations in native films,

Reading a transcript while listening to native French input markedly improved my aural comprehension in a few months.

Listening to a lot of native French input where I only understood the gist helped a lot, probably because it trained my brain to recall words quickly. Understanding words and grammar is one skill, being able to recall them fast enough to create meaningful messages is a quite separate skill.

Listening to French input that was barely intelligible due to the pronunciation rather than the grammar or vocabulary produced benefits with all input in a few weeks. I assume that is because it forced me to focus more, but that’s a guess.

For German I followed the comprehensible input approach for a year. My impression was that word acquisition was rather slow, and my knowledge was very passive.

I then tried listening to and studying simple German videos for learners and that worked better. Active study appears to help retention. However some YouTube videos are not produced by native speakers, and the creators are often amateurs and not experienced language teachers. Caveat emptor.

Recently I have started to experiment with reading German children’s book. Initial impressions are good. I can be sure that the German is correct and is a good representation of ordinary standard German i.e. not formal, not slang and not regional. The act of looking up words in a dictionary and writing them down on Post It notes seems to help retention, possibly because it requires active study. Pictures probably create more associations.

I’m also doing some German grammar study, and sentence building. I may increase the amount of sentence building using online translation tools as checkers. I do think output is required, though not necessarily with a teacher or a speech partner.

So in many repects my method for German is tending towards a language school approach. The methods I have tried and rejected are apps - Duolingo, Busuu and Babbel - and CI.

I must admit I haven’t tracked my reading speed. I know that in French it has increased markedly.

As an aside, I have recently been reading about the history of linguistics research into SLA. As @Obsttorte pointed out some while back, Krashen’s ideas are not new. Even as far back as the seventeenth century, there were experiments with a natural method of SLA. The grammar translation method became widespread in the nineteenth century but even then some people advocated for a more ‘natural’ method and such ideas were widespread in the first half of the twentieth century. Krashen brought these ideas together into a model, and added several dubious supposedly scientific claims. There are countless other models of SLA, many with a stronger evidential basis than CI, but for some reason Krashenism has taken hold among popularisers, especially on YouTube. The cynic might attribute this to shallow thinking, conformism and laziness. Krashen is exceptionally good at promoting his model. Many of us have seen the video in which he teaches the audience some simple German. I regard him as an excellent showman. Interestingly according to some sources, he has made a substantial amount of money from lecture tours, and acting as a consultant to government bodies that are responsible for SLA in schools, especially among immigrants. I cannot verify those claims. He also has numerous academic colleagues who promote his ideas. I would argue, that like Chomsky, his ideas have gained far more prominance than they deserve, due to the guru effect i.e. a very dominant personality. And this can have a detrimental impact on the field, as it directs research away from potentially more fruitful avenues of investigation.

3 Likes

The reason is most likely that Krashen makes it appear as if language learning can be done without the actual learning part. It’s also diametral to the “school” approach many seem to have bad memories of, maybe because it didn’t work out too well for them and in the hindsight it is easier to blame the school system as compared to accept that we may just were a bit to lazy and ignorant to actually put in some effort when we were young. I for one know that I was as lazy a student as possible. :joy:

1 Like

I think the devil is in the details in terms of input. I’ve tried many forms of it (eg. reading on LingQ in Page View, reading on LingQ in Sentence Mode, reading while listening in Page View, reading bilingual books, reading while listening to YouTube videos with the likes of Language Reactor, not to mention the various variations of these methods if you add in repetition as well) and I notice that some are better than others. Not that reading speed / content density is the be all and end all, but a reading speed too low is an issue. This goes back to my very first post, where removing non-language can play a significant role in efficiency. For example, one recent YouTube video I watched had 3k wph, whereas my usual content has 9k wph. That is 3x as much language learning content! This may sound obvious, but the same goes with all the clicks and loading dictionaries when just reading. I’ve noticed over a doubling of reading speed by removing useless clutter.

From another thread over a year back:

If the content is at the ‘perfect’ level, a mostly but slightly modified ‘comprehensible input’ approach works wonders. Really. If you get a native speaker to use pictures and point while saying what they are, you can really learn a lot of vocabulary. It’s not immediate, but gradually you start to accumulate words. After that, you can move onto comic books and the native speaker focuss on describing the images and what’s happening (not dictating the dialogue). During this practice, you can repeat back various words you start to learn and even start to jump in and start contributing to the describing of the story too. The added influence of a native speaker/tutor doing this for you personally, and you can interact with them to indicate confusion is how you get everything at the ‘perfect’ level (if they are good at their job). Furthermore, the fact that you are interacting with a person really adds something extra to the whole situation (especially if you get along with the person). It’s not just reading or watching or listening to some content. It’s a human interaction. This somehow electrifies the situation with increased attention. It’s also a noticeable difference doing this in person as opposed to online. This is probably my favourite variant of all, especially at the beginner to intermediate stages. The downsides are it requires a physical person, which probably costs money.

1 Like

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

There is truth in gest. A YouTube video making ridiculous claims will get lots of views and hence generate money for the creator.

I object to that remark, I worked very hard producing some very high quality paper airplanes during school French lessons. Other than that, your comment make sense.

2 Likes

@nfera In regards to boosting reading speed via Language Reactor et. al., while I can see the benefit for learning a language comparable close to you native one, or a language you know well and use as translation language, I find this approach very hard for my Korean learning. I used it with text only, so without the neccessity to “keep up” so to speak, but due to the completely different syntax and grammar it was often very hard for me to connect specific words of the translation to the words in the original text. And once you pass the basic level and have sentences that use several grammars, you get the same problem there, unless you already know the grammar by heart.

In addition, Korean sentences can become really long, in which case they are usually split up into several sentences in the translation, as they would be unintelligable or at least bad style otherwise. (An example from an early intermediate text (roughly translated as far as I remember it): Furthermore I am writing these words to you to let you know that I would be really pleased if you could share some helpful tips with me regarding some recent occurences that took place in my life regarding my love life).

In difference the approach worked relatively well in regards to Spanish, which is relatively close to German and English grammar and syntax wise.

However, besides the quantity I would assume that the quality of the reading plays an important role, too. So while I agree that the downtime due to the, uhm … improve-worthy LingQ UI is something that slows down the learning process, I wouldn’t rely on the number of words read only. Having a translation available means that a lot of what translation is accompanied with, the correct application of sentence analysis and grammatical structure as well as taking into account the context, is more or less taken off your shoulders.

When I applied a similar method while learning Spanish - reading the sentence, trying to understand the rough meaning, then looking at the translation to countercheck and procede on to the next sentence - I didn’t really came to the impression that I learned significantly faster. In the end this may be subjective and also a matter of how long such a method is applied.

I am still confused, though, how CI fits into the picture. If you use material that is comprehensible, thus having an amount of unknown words that doesn’t hinder your understanding of the content, what do you need LingQ or any sort of translation for? Just read or listen to the text. It’s odd that a software that mainly serves as a convenient way to look up and store translations for words (a.k.a. dictionary) has such a high percentage of CI fans. :astonished: :thinking: :exploding_head:

2 Likes

This, 100%. This week I’ve read over 50,000 words on LingQ. Why? The book I’m reading is simply captivating. Every day I do a little Ukrainian grammar. Why? Because I enjoy doing a little, but doing too much bores me. I speak once a week with a tutor on Italki. Why? That’s fun and energizing. More would be difficult to fit in my schedule and cost too much.

It’s been almost 3 years, and I’m still learning this language because I do that which captivates my attention. Closing in on Advanced 1 here and starting to feel closer to B2 every day. Maybe 6 months away. Staying interested is the key optimization, in my opinion.

6 Likes

people here hate it but anki. start using anki and add audio files, memorize the cards. Youd be surprised how fluent youll get.

Also mass immersion listening. Make it your job to listen all day every day even if you dont understand. Jump into the deep end when ever possible.

After mastering one language i know exactly what i would of done differently.

2 Likes

I like this. When i first started a 3 minute video would take me an hour but i kept treating it like a puzzle

1 Like

I can’t comment on this. Though there are two main areas I’ve noticed where sentence translations start to fall apart (as in become harder to use):

  1. Too many unknown words or grammar in the one sentence. It is ideal that there is only one unknown in the sentence, so you can quickly skim the translation to find it. If you have more than one unknown in a sentence, it can start to become difficult to know which unknown word connects to which translation. Ideal is one unknown, two is alright, three and above start to become complex.

  2. Sentences are too long. It just means there is more text to scan to find the definition you’re looking for. But the main reason is long sentences are more likely to have more unknown words or grammar in them, so it goes back to point one. If you have a sentence of 100 words, if you only have one unknown, then you have a very high level for the material you’re reading and I question why are you using sentence translations at all.

Additionally, if you have a lot of subclauses in a sentence, then it’s just confusing anyways. Even native speakers find sentences with many subclauses in them confusing.

In terms of me, I consider the theory that you can become fluent in a language solely from comprehensible input alone to be just bollocks. The obvious examples are people who understand a language fluenty, but can’t speak it. There are many of these people in the world. The German language example are those people who live in the mountains in Switzerland and Austria, who understand High German perfectly (that is, the prestige variant of German) as they watch television in the language, but can’t speak it. Instead, when they try and speak, their dialect (a different variant of German) comes out of their mouth. Though, they are not the only people. It’s not uncommon for me to hear “I understand X language, but can’t speak it,” where X language is the native language of one of their parents or family members or friends. This is enough to prove that the comprehensible input theory that you can become fluent in a language solely from it alone is false. As for comprehensible input as one of the methods/tools to learn to understand a language, it definitely works. However, I generally don’t consider it very efficient, namely as the content isn’t particularly comprehensible as it could be. But in my above-stated version of it, which I’ve personally used myself, it really is very powerful.

As to why there are so many comprehensible input fans on the LingQ forums, I could only guess that it’s partly led by Steve Kaufmann’s promotion, who draws these people to the software in the first place. From that, I’d say many people have different definitions of what it actually is - theory to fluency, technique, etc. For instance, some people seem to claim that “LingQ makes incomprehensible input comprehensible” (through the use of a dictionary). The definition comprehensible input’ really depends on who’s using it, yet most people assume their definitions are the same.

3 Likes

I’d never seen anyone refering to High German as “the prestige variant”. :joy: It is just the standard used in Germany. I would assume that most countries have such a standard (or several, depending on history).

However, it is usually possible to understand people who speak a different german dialect, even though it might take some time. A friend of mine’s brother went to a different place in Germany and his father in law speaks a very intensive version of the local dialect. When we went to visit them I was not able to understand a single word of what he was saying. At the second day the problem was more or less gone, since we we’re talking a lot and I got used to it.

I made a similar experience a while ago when I watched The Sympathizer with Robert Downey Junior (highly adviseable). It took me one and a half episode until I reached the point where I was able to understand what this guy was saying (in his role as a CIA agent, he plays four different characters, all having a different speaking style). Funny thing is that I found the vietnamese actors who spoke English with a rather strong accent the easiest to understand. :slight_smile:

1 Like

The prestige variant and the standard variant are often, but not always, the same. Prestige may change depending on social context, but some key indicators of prestige are phrases about a native speaker like, “He doesn’t speak English very well” and “She speaks bad English.” It’s generally used in a demeaning way to socially criticise someone for not speaking the prestige variant in a given situation.

1 Like

You’ve obviously thought long and hard about your own methodology and what works for you.

For me the process of looking something up and writing it down improves recall, thus I do not worry about efficiency of look up.

I listen to native French content, and a wide range of subjects and speakers, with as many registers as possible e.g. formal radio presenter, political speech, interviews with acknowledged experts, radio debates, podcasts by untrained presenters on diverse subjects such as gardening and SpaceX, people in the street with regional accents, young people, uneducated people and so on.

I believe that output is crucial, simply writing down phrases and speaking to oneself is beneficial. That of course is contrary to the ideas of Krashen.

Yes I am familiar with the Direct Method, thanks to @Obsttorte, and subsequent reading. According to Approaches and Methods in Language Teaching, by Richards and Rodgers, it was developed in Boston in the late 1860’s by Sauveur, long before Krashen.

I think we have a problem with terminology. Comprehensible Input (CI) is a term introduced by Krashen as part of his theory of SLA. Thus when we refer to CI, we are implicitly referring to using his method, which states that we cannot learn explicitly or consciously, we must learn implicitly or subconsciously. You are using input, or partially comprehensible input, whichever term you prefer.

It seems that, at least in amateur linguistics, most people believe that Krashen invented learning assisted by large amounts of input, and that prior to Krashen everyone used rote learning and formal instruction.

The above all makes sense, it is why a week or two ago I started to use childrens picture books with my German studies. I’m sure what you describe has merit and I would love to have a personal tutor, but lack of funds prevents that, and my adverts for an unpaid German servant have received no replies.

Learning is of course a complex process that is enhanced by images, context, background sounds such as bird song, and emotional triggers such as excitement, fear and surprise, and even smell. We remember events from decades earlier that are associated with strong emotions, and forget what we were doing before and after. I still remember the phrase Tu t’es fait tout mouillé which was said to me one day by the secretary in the Départment de Chime at L’université de Montréal 35 years ago. Memory is odd. I also have a memory from over 50 years ago of walking along a road and being assailed by the smell of fresh tar from a boiler contraption standing on the pavement.

I find that association and focus help long term memory storage of words, for example by picturing the object or action referred to, or doing a Google search for images of the object or action.

Some people use mnemonics, and they can be effective.

I am getting much better at remembering words, perhaps because I am using better techniques of memorisation.

2 Likes

In Britain we certainly had correct English, or the Queen’s English or Received Pronunciation, which were seen as both correct and prestigious, and regional forms were considered inferior, There is even an old BBC broadcast with a chap speaking strong Yorkshire, and a BBC chap ‘translating’ into BBC English for the benefit of the gentlefolk watching. Attitudes have shifted, and now regional accents are not looked down on.

I believe Germany and Austria are much more tolerant of regional dialects/languages. France is decidedly intolerant, I recently heard some French radio presenters mocking a guest’s accent after an interview.

1 Like

This depends on the dialect. Although it is usually more common to make fun out of it but not to insult someone for using one. It can, of course, have a negative impact if a person you are relying on has a negative view of the region your dialect is associated to, for example when having a job interview. Although this isn’t the norm, I’d say.

I was probably more confused by the wording. “Prestige” sounds like we were talking about some elite style of language, only spoken by a few selected. The majority of people I’ve met all over Germany however either speak High German or have only a minor dialect … or are rather good at surpressing it.

1 Like

The two things I love to learn are music and language, and what they share is a very complex logical sub-structure that must be assimilated via feel/intuition, and yet this intuitive assimilation can be helped along by periods of reflection upon and engagement with the logical sub-structure as such. I think this process of learning can be effectively improved with some sort of quasi-scientific, quantitative feedback loop, but that it cannot be ultimately mechanized, universalized, and measured. Improvement in passing on linguistic and musical traditions comes not by enslaving them to entirely quantitative evaluation, but by understanding the “tolerance of fit” between current quantitative methods and the underlying activity, and by the building up of a robust culture of transmission that incorporates not only techniques but also all sorts of embedded social intelligence. These are deeply human activities, which is what makes them so fascinating and motivating and rewarding.

What I’m trying to express is that the application of method is itself an art, and the reason why I think you are good at this @nfera is because you have an instinctive inclination to love the application of method as art, and not as an idol or ideology. What I aim to do is keep iterating, experimenting, and yes measuring, while never letting the external validation of measurement undermine my trust in my own ability to learn, and to learn how to learn, and yes to validate growth in those areas by self-examination and reflection. I appreciate stats, but don’t need a stat to validate everything I do.

2 Likes

Alas, Stephen Krashen used the word ‘comprehensible input’, which aptly refers to a particular type of input/content, but loaded all his baggage of an obviously incorrect theory on top of it.

I would say that Austria and Switzerland are more tolerant of their regional variants of German. The reason would be that these variants actually hold prestige in many situations. I think Germany is less tolerant to other variants (in general). I’ve heard stories from dialect speakers who were apparently told by Germans that they aren’t speaking High German, because they weren’t speaking the standard of High German in Germany. Though, I think High German still holds a particular prestige amongst the upper class, even outside of Germany. The variants spoken by educated, upper class people are much closer to High German from what I hear. I’m no expert on the matter though and these are just stories I’ve heard.

It’s interesting to note that the linguist Geoff Lindsey says that there are very few speakers of Received Pronunciation left. Even Prince William and Prince Harry don’t speak it. He also says that in Australia the strength of the Australian accent is measured by how far it is from RP. Here’s one of his several videos about RP:

I think of the adage: not everything of value can be measured and not everything measured is of value. It definitely makes it more challenging though, especially with very subtle differences or differences which take a while to see the results. xD

1 Like

Note that both Austria and Switzerland have a much smaller population then Germany. So the chances that a German knows about a dialect and its speakers without ever having met any of those speakers is higher, and so is the chance that a negative image associated with a dialect is just adopted.

In general it isn’t the case that the upper class and lower class people speak different dialects. Lower class people usually have a smaller vocabulary and tend to use shorter sentences and a simpler way of speaking in general, similar to how the language of teenagers differ from that of adults who are twice as old or more. But that isn’t considered a dialect here in Germany. It is really a regional thing.

Especially the dialects spoken in Eastern Germany have a particulary bad image due to our history, the fact that the population in Eastern Germany only make up about on seventh of the overall population and that the major part of wealth and economic strength lies in the hands of Western Germans. This and the focus of our media on problems that arose from such issues in Eastern Germany, like a higher acceptance for extreme political parties, gives Eastern Germany, its population and therefore the dialects associated with it a rather bad reputation. This is accompanied by the effort of younger Eastern Germans to try to not let the dialect slip into the language of their children too much in order to avoid them to be easely identifyable as “Ossis” (how we call people in Eastern Germany).

2 Likes