@ Imy :
“No time soon will we not be the most hated people on earth…”
I would say “No time soon will we not be the most hated people in the Occidental part of the world” ,wouldn’t you ? 
Oh my God, Did I have to mention Napoleon!!!
There is an industry of outrage that exists in most Western European countries and seems to limits peoples opinions on many topics. Mention Israel and you become an anti semite, mention clientelism or corruption in Africa and you become neo-colonialist and a racist. It isn’t really new and not at all specific to questions of Middle East Politics. Specialisations in areas become specialisations of PR companies in how best to promote their ‘side’. Lobbies set up with high minded goals to defend certain groups interests over time tend to become proactive in their defense of an interest. This ‘all out defense’ mentality can indeed hinder debate on certain issues.
As a bit of a side note, I’ve never met anyone who said they didn’t believe in the holocaust. I don’t know how I’d react if I did. It’s hard to believe that there are people like that.
I almost never hear people make anti-semitic comments in real life, but if you look at the comments thread of pretty much any youtube video, you’ll see anti-semitic comments. I don’t know if Jews are the most hated people on the planet, but certainly within some circles, it seems. Or at least it comes out on the internet.
@ Bortrun :
“I almost never hear people make anti-semitic comments in real life, but if you look at the comments thread of pretty much any youtube video, you’ll see anti-semitic comments. I don’t know if Jews are the most hated people on the planet, but certainly within some circles, it seems. Or at least it comes out on the internet.”
These comments come from “white” people.
Here, in Asia (and for sure you know it, as you live in Japan), nobody cares about Jews and Judaism.
In Thailand, Laos and Cambodia, you can easily find swatiskas on T-shirts, cars, motorcycles, bikes, etc … and nobody knows its “Western” signification.
The Holocaust is a “Western” problem. Ask a Thai/Cambodian/Malay/Chinese/Indonesian/Indian to talk about this : usually, the conversation will last 30 seconds, through lack of knowledge and, more than anything, lack of interest.
@Bortrun: “…As a bit of a side note, I’ve never met anyone who said they didn’t believe in the holocaust. I don’t know how I’d react if I did. It’s hard to believe that there are people like that.”
I think it’s often more subtle than this. I imagine very few people actually deny the whole holocaust: instead you may hear people claiming that the numbers killed were relatively small, or that it wasn’t planned, or that Hitler didn’t know what the SS were doing, etc. (Basically they are trying to whitewash National Socialism.)
Having said that, I guess there are a few crazed people out there who are even nutty enough to claim that the whole thing is a hoax.
@JayB - I think you’ve just, somewhat inadvertently, hit the nail on the head. No one can question any of the details of the holocaust (irrespective of any possible evidence or statistics) without being:
- labelled something (e.g. someone “trying to whitewash National Socialism”), or
- immediately grouped into the category of being “nutty enough” to deny the whole thing.
Now I’m not advocating any position, in fact I believe what I’ve been told about it my whole life, and I’ve never had any reason to think otherwise.
Others might want to find out more, and do some investigation into the matter. The only problem is, if they find anything that doesn’t quite match what the established facts are, they will be subject to the above process.
I have read quite a lot about the holocaust. I would be surprised if any serious investigation would turn up any facts that would challenge most of the extensive research and records of what took place. It was pretty awful and the Nazis kept careful and extensive records.
I think that where subjectivity enters into it is the deciding on how much importance that should be placed on this example of man’s inhumanity to man, versus other awful examples, sort of the suffering of my people is more important than the suffering of other people thing.
That said, in general people who seek to deny the holocaust or seek to diminish the nature or scale of the killing usually turn out to be believers in a range of Jewish conspiracy theories and are apologists for Hitler etc… The pattern is pretty consistent.
@IMY - If and when I feel the urge, I will. At this stage, I’m happy with my established understanding of it (i.e. what I’ve always been told).
Even if, hypothetically speaking, some details surrounding those events were one day to be falsified, I can’t imagine it wouldn’t detract anything from what actually happened there, nor our ability to remember it.
In other words, I’m more concerned about it as a freedom of speech (or thought) issue, nothing more.
I absolutely agree with you as regards freedom of speech. There are some countries (such as Germany and Austria) where people are jailed for up to 20 years for disputing any of the key historical facts surrounding the holocaust. In my opinion this is both wrong in principle, and - worse - it can actually add a kind of weight to what these people are saying! (Let’s face it, nobody is jailed for writing a book saying that the world is flat!)
Steve is absolutely right to say that almost all of the people who deny all or part of the holocaust are Neo-Nazis and/or Anti-Semites (although there may possibly be a few exceptions to this rule.) However I personally would defend the right of all these people to say whatever they want about the holocaust - even if they have an ugly motivation.
In my opinion, the principle of free speech has to apply to absolutely everyone - otherwise it loses any meaning.
Jay, as frequently happens here, I agree with you on freedom of speech.