Unfortunately it looks like Napoleon is slowly dying in Marseille’s harbour (or port?). 
I’ve always wondered why Napoleon is praised as an admirable emperor and Hitler is like the devil. Both were psychopaths (in fact just like most country rulers are) and both never had enough countries to conquer. Because of them, millions of people died. One is a great strategist with lots of statues in his name and the other can’t even be mentioned.
Is it because Hitler is part of our “recent” history and Napoleon isn’t?. Will Hitler be praised in 200 years?.. I wonder.
Berta, the reason is quite clear to me. Napoleon began by defending the revolution and its ideas against the coalition of forces of the old order. Then he engaged in the same activities of conquest and disregard for human life that had been the pattern in the dynastic struggles of the old order for centuries in Europe. But this pattern was common not only in Europe but on all continents and in all ages. The Mongols, the Mughals, the Ottomans, the Aztecs, the European colonial powers, and Imperial Japan, the Soviet Union and on and on have engaged in conquest and slaughter. Hitler is part of that same pattern of conquest, aggrandizement and attempted colonization, true.
Hitler is unique, however, in that he declared war on a portion of his own citizens, Jews, Gypsies, Gays, and sought to exterminate them, wherever he found them, including in the countries that he conquered. In that he resembles Stalin and Pol Pot more than Napoleon.
I don’t think Napoleon ever tried to exterminate a whole people. You know, French don’t wake up every morning thanking Napoleon, we don’t celebrate his birthday or anything like that. He’s not our national hero either, nor the one conservatives refer to. At school it’s not a period we spend a long time on, as there’s the Revolution that takes a good part of the year. Actually since I’ve been learning languages, I’ve the impression foreigners know what he did more than I do.
200 years? I think it will be much much sooner. For the past 20 years after the ruination of USSR the Nazi Germany and its leader image has taken a great turn to the better.
Hitler’s ideology just extended very dear to Colonial Europe ideas about “the only real humans” onto European nations. Simplified, there are genetically pure Nazi Germans, there are smart animals like chimpanzee (i.e. some Europeans nations), there are useful animals like cattle or horses (some Slavic nations) and there are pests like locust (Jews, some Slavic nations, Asians), who should be treated like we normally treat flies or mosquito. And the fact that pests look alike to human beings is especially disgusting. Of course, there were “good” Nazis too, who, like Green Party members, thought that you should care about your cattle.
It was the greatest and most inhuman slaughter in history lead by ideology of superhuman (at least in our part of the world). Looking for photos and reading the documents of the purposed civil population extermination (Gaswagens, etc.) is terrifying even now. It will take long for Belorussians, Russians, Ukrainians to forget this and forgive Europe for letting the jinnee out of the bottle. But without powerful Jews lobby, the Europe would start to admire Hitler long ago. There are many youth in Estonia, Finland, Poland, Germany, etc. proudly wearing Nazi symbols, parts of WWII uniform and heartedly advocating Nazi ideas… There are many populist opinions about “good Hitler” and “bad communists” in European media.
It has nothing to do with Napoleon and his wars. It is about slaughtering the whole villages and playing awful games with the infants bodies just for fun. It is about mass people extermination in industrial scale, with methodology and specific equipment. It is about making gloves from human skin. And to put the sign of equality between Hitler and Stalin (or Napoleon) is like comparing black to white. It is a good sign that Nazi ideology and European propaganda won. There is nothing to be ashamed now. Maybe, it is time for history to repeat itself. Especially, with the financial crisis at hand, “just like in old times”.
P.S. Africans, South- and North- American Indians, Australian Aborigines take this opportunity and say “Hello!” to Colonial Europe and its followers. Do you remember scientific articles of slavery times, seriously proving that black people are just species of monkey? Nazis’ genetically based theories of “who is the perfect Aryan here?” are very similar.
Steve you’re right about Napoleon but I don’t hear people praising him for defending the revolution but for him being such a good statesman and what a great mind he had for battle. You’re also right about him being sicker than Napoleon (and many other rulers) but do you think that in 200 years people will forget that just like they forgot all the deaths Napoleon caused?
Jorgis it’s not that he tried to exterminate people… in fact he did. Killing people wasn’t his goal, just collateral damage. I only know of Gandhi “conquering” something in a peaceful way. We all have past and present rulers we ought to be ashamed of.
Just like Berta, I worry that the dimension of atrocities during the period of National Socialism will fade away in our mind in the long run. Therefore it should be indispensable to convey to our children our knowledge of the developments (at least as important as the effects itself) of the “Third Reich” and how a maniac like Hitler (and his collaborators) could get to such a mighty position. No one can exclude, that Germany (or any other country) will be in a similar situation one day. Of course, there will always be some silly ignorants who praise Hitler or any other despot (Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot etc.).
Now to the positive developments in the last time: When I travelled for the first time in foreign countries, I sometimes got the impression, that I had to apologize that I’m a German and for the cruelties which happened in our country (though I wasn’t even born at that time). A German who was proud of his country (like e.g. an American of the USA or a French of France) was automatically seen as a Nazi.
But my last experiences show me, that - fortunately - the time has changed. The (West-) European countries are slowly growing more and more together (of course not without any quarrellings).
P.S.: Can’t continue as I have to go now…
Humans being humans, there is no country that does not have leaders, and even periods in their history, which they are not proud of, in other words when not only the leaders but many willing accomplices participated in war, persecution, and other cruelties and unfair behaviour. What matters is today, as il melomane says.
Germans have every right to be proud of most of their history and their contribution to world civilization and culture. In particular their thorough denazification, which understandably started somewhat slowly, as many ex-Nazis were still in positions of power after the war, but which has since gathered strength and is a core aspect of civic culture of Germany from what I can tell. This is not the result of any Jewish lobby as a5m claims.
As to far right Nazis and extreme nationalists, these unfortunately exist in various European countries, probably more in Russia than anywhere.
Stalin slaughtered his own people, 750,000 executions in 1937 alone. He deliberately sought to eliminate the Kulak class to suit his ideological goals, and the result was the death of countless millions. However, unlike Hitler, he is still seen as one of the greatest Russians of all times in Russia, which never ceases to amaze me.
Theories of racial superiority were common throughout the late 19th and early 20th century, and not unique to any people. These views often were used to justify colonialism. Times have changed. Such ideas have much less appeal today.
The best guarantee, in my view, that we will not see repeats of the tragedies of the 20th century is the fullest degree of freedom of expression.
Napoleon was indeed a great stateman, as he modernized France, establishing or reforming many institutions that are still at the heart of the French state. He created a lot of things that every French knows, especially in the fields of education and justice. He also won a good number of battles, and lost others.
As you said almost every ruler can be held responsible for the death of lots of people. All the presidents or prime ministers of the countries whose armies are or were in Afghanistan or Iraq, etc… It would be vain, in my opinion, to condemn them all.
@ Steve
In France at least, the Jewish lobby is very powerful and you can’t even name Israel - except to say it’s a wonderful country, otherwise there’s a good chance they will prosecute you for antisemitism, which is pure nonsense. You can criticize any religion except Judaïsm, make jokes about everything except Jews. I’m not interested in making jokes about Jews but it simply goes against freedom of speech. Plus, making jokes or criticizing Israel doesn’t mean one is antisemitic. We have plenty of jokes about Belgians and we’re not antibelgianic at all. In a sense it has worked but it has led to a growing frustration among a part of the population as we don’t like to be told what we can or cannot say or do.
@ il_melomane
In France I think people don’t hold a grudge against Germany anymore, except some old people maybe or some football fans who haven’t forgiven Schumacher for knocking out Battiston.
“In France at least, the Jewish lobby is very powerful and you can’t even name Israel - except to say it’s a wonderful country, otherwise there’s a good chance they will prosecute you for antisemitism, which is pure nonsense.”
Can you give some examples of this?
Well, just google it. The mere fact that the question “can we criticize Israel without being called antisemitic” is asked so often on the Internet is a proof in itself.
One can’t hold a conference about Israel in a university for example (this is not the only example of a conference being cancelled):
http://www.lyon-info.fr/?Une-conference-sur-l-apartheid-en
And everytime an association or people call to boycott Israeli products, they sue them. I woudln’t boycott any country but if people want to do so they should be free to announce it. Nobody sued the countries that boycotted Iran’s oil. They even sued people like Stephane Hessel, who was sent to Buchenwald in 1944 and whose grandfather was Jewish.
This kind of things happens all the time because of their sick paranoia.
It makes me sad to see that in the so-called Patrie des droits de l’Homme.
Jorgis, I have no doubt that the Jewish lobby is loud and well organized and annoying. However, you said that people are prosecuted for criticizing Israel. Do you have any examples?
Here in Canada, and as far as I know elsewhere in the West, I would say that an anti-Israel position is quite common. Churches, unions, universities professors and students regularly come out with calls to boycott Israel, organize annual Israel Apartheid weeks, and join the Palestine Peace Flotilla etc. I am surprised to hear that people who hold or express such views in France would be prosecuted.
I agree that there is far too much suing of people for their views. I favour the free expression of views. At any rate I am surprised to hear that criticizing Jews is against the law in France as you stated, in fact your example suggests that this is not the case.
La conférence devait également évoquer la campagne Boycott, Désinvestissement, Sanctions à l’égard d’Israël, lancée à l’appel de la société civile palestinienne en 2005 et portée par un ensemble d’ONG. Une campagne illégale aux yeux du Conseil représentatif des institutions juives de France (Crif). Mais pas pour la justice française qui a estimé dans un récent jugement que, « dès lors que l’appel au boycottage des produits israéliens est formulé par un citoyen pour des motifs politiques et qu’il s’inscrit dans le cadre d’un débat politique relatif au conflit israélo-palestinien, (…) l’infraction de provocation à la discrimination fondée sur l’appartenance à une nation n’est pas constituée. »
@ Imy
In France the Arab lobby mustn’t be very big, or if they are they’re amateurs because presidents and ministers can almost openly make racist comments. If it was really influent here, the Le Pen family wouldn’t do politics.
@ Steve
I didn’t say that the law preventing people from criticizing Israel or the Jews, but some pro-Israel unions sue those who do it. I didn’t say they won. But when you’re sued once, that they use their influence to put pressure on you (the professors, the writers or the artists who dare disobey), you think twice before criticizing again. And with the French justice, the trial won’t be over before years.
I wouldn’t want to see antisemistism becoming commonplace in the French society like racism against Arabs has become commonplace anyway. It’s just that I can’t stand those infregements of the most elementary liberties.
@Jorgis: “…In France at least, the Jewish lobby is very powerful and you can’t even name Israel - except to say it’s a wonderful country, otherwise there’s a good chance they will prosecute you for antisemitism”
I think it is dangerous to confuse “anti-Semitism” with “criticism of Israel”.
Anti-Semitism is a form of racism towards Jewish people because of their ethnicity.
Criticism of Israel is basically like criticism of America, or criticism of China, etc. There are many Jews in Europe (and indeed in Israel) who are critical of some/all of the actions of the current Israeli government.
I know what the two terms mean, but in France when you criticize Israel publicly, some stupid unions accuse you of antisemitism.
Well you should move to England, Jorgis!
The BBC, The Guardian, The New Statesman, most UK trade unions, and most UK universities would welcome you with open arms if you are an Israel-thumper!
(In the case of the first three, you could most probably get away with borderline actual anti-Semitism too…)
I’m not an Israel-thumper, I prefer to spend my time learning languages or playing football, but what you describe is clearly not possible in France.
I’m not a frog who likes rain, but I might consider moving to the UK one day. I’d like to spend some time there, just to escape from the French administration for a while, with all its application forms you have to fill for everything and anything.
What a wonderful thread !
First of all, as far as I know, Napoleon is responsible for … 0 death !
According to the logic of berta, if I say to her : “kill him !!!”, and if Berta kills the poor man, then the responsible for this crime is … me ???
Sorry, but the responsible for the crime is Berta ! No ???
Very easy to relieve oneself of one’s responsabilities…
For the last part of the discussion, I agree with Jorgis : in France, it’s very difficult to critize Isreal AND the Jew “community” (I dislike this word).
2 examples I have in mind :
- the murders of Ilan Halimi and Saïd Bourarach : 2 horribles stories, showing how stupid and barbaric some people can be.
The differences between these 2 stories :
- The Halimi case has been broadcast on TV/radios FOR MONTHS, and now, each year, we have the “anniversary” of this horrible story. We can see (private) commemorations on TV, gathering thousends of people, and approved by the authorities.
- The Bourarach case has been broadcast on TV/Radios for several days, half of the time questionning the honesty of the victim. This case is now totally forgotten, and the authorities have regularly refused the family to organize (pacific) commemorations.
As we say in France, “deux poids, deux mesures”.
- The movies “Case Départ” and “L’Antisemite” :
- The first movie is a comedy, where you have stupid clichés about Blacks, and where the director tried to make slavery look ridiculous and even funny !
-The second movie is also a comedy, where you have stupid clichés about Jews, and where the director tried to make Shoah look ridiculous and even funny !
“Case Départ” has been praised as a wonderful comedy, “L’Antisemite” as a pure expression of antisemitism, and his director has been prosecuted several times (and ALWAYS declared of ALL the accusations).
Give me a few hours, and I will have plenty of other examples !!!
Another one : in France, we’ve lost the right to question the existence of gas chambers as a tool to execute thousends of people.
If you do so, you will be prosecuted (and for sure condamned). Wonderful example of freedom…
I agree with berta. If the person in charge, general, president, mafia boss, whatever, orders someone to kill someone else, that person in charge is responsible, at least as responsible as the person following orders. I would think this is the case in all legal systems, and it is only common sense.
I have no knowledge of these French examples nor have I the time to look into them.
I agree that people should be allowed to question the existence of the Nazi gas chambers, believe in ghosts, or even question whether the earth is round. I just wonder why they do so.
“I just wonder why they do so.”
Maybe because the earth is not round… 