Feeling demotivated

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41
  • I think the best thing you can do is find Music that you love.
  • Find Podcasts that are interesting to you.
  • Find youtubers that you like.
  • Try to recall what first brought you to this language.
  • I would say stay away from reading for a while, because reading takes a lot of energy and focus.
  • just take a break for as long as you need, and come back to language when it draws you back in naturally.
  • Forget about your stats on LingQ.

I think sometimes when we burn ourselves out because we are reading and listening to things (Solely to improve) instead of really taking the time to find something we are whole heartedly interested in.

42

“when it draws you back in naturally.”
This attitude is part of the problem, not the solution domain:

“I would say stay away from reading for a while, because reading takes a lot of energy and focus.”
No!
Successful learners simply reduce the reading time, but they never give up for an extended period of time or on reading entirely.

In other words, when people often say, “I’m not a reader!” what they really mean is, “I’m bad at reading. That’s why it isn´t pleasant / comfortable.” The “avoidance mentality” then tells them, “Avoid - avoid - avoid until you´re a functional analphabet.”

Since you seem to have no teaching experience in language learning, you have never seen how harmful your advice is.
Unlike you, I have and I should add: many times!

I respect your opinion, but it would be better if you knew what you were talking about on this subject…

43

I have read many interesting and useful answers in this thread, I’m grateful to the participants.

For my part, I tried to achieve a “middle way” between habit-building and fun. I try to set a low-level goal for building a habit, which I feel like I must strictly adhere to. But then I usually do more on top of that, spurred by interesting content, or by my mood.

So I try to set a “flat line” as objective (the habit), and then a fluctuating wave of additional results, depending on my motivation, on top of that line.

44

Hi, Jokojoko83!

I think there´s a misunderstanding here:
There´s no contrast: “habit” versus “fun”

The simple habit-based idea is:

  • If it´s important to you, do it regularly (if possible: every day!)
  • The more the habit is established and the better learners get at their practical skills, the more comfortable they´ll feel and the more fun they´ll have because they can play with the practical skill they´re trying to acquire.

The main advantage of a habit-based learning style then is: It makes learners independent of fluctuating motivations, emotions, will, discipline, etc.

“So I try to set a “flat line” as objective (the habit), and then a fluctuating wave of additional results, depending on my motivation”
As long as learners feed their “habit demon” regulary, that´s also an option.
However, I prefer Pomodoro blocks because they work much better in “high pressure” situations (exams, etc.).

Have a nice day
Peter

45

Wow what an awful way to respond to someone. It’s okay to disagree with someone, but its another thing to try and belittle them. Your reply was completely unnecessary and toxic. There’s much better ways to respond to somebody that you don’t agree with then this nonsense.

46

Take Peter with a grain of salt. He’s German and Germans in general tend to be blunt. And not just to be assholes. They just don’t like to dance around how they feel and instead just get direct to the point of contention.
He has strong beliefs about the optimal way to do things. As do I.
I don’t agree with Peter in everything but I am interested in his opinion, warts and all.

47

That´s spot on, xxdb.

Some cultures (German, Dutch, Finnish, Israeli, etc.) are known for their “very direct” style of communication.
But it might also depend on

  • the social milieu / family
  • the profession (e.g., techies are usually much more direct than people in the medical profession)
  • German males tend to be more direct than females
  • West Germans tend to express their position much more confidently / direct than East Germans
  • the personality (being strong-willed, etc.)

But of course, those are just tendencies. So you shouldn’t be entirely surprised if one day you meet a nurse from East Germany who is tough as nails and extremely (!) direct :slight_smile:

“He has strong beliefs about the optimal way to do things.”
That´s a misunderstanding. I rather believe there´s no optimal way at all, only a mix of strategies / methods, tools, etc. that might work in a specific context. In short: no silver bullet - no panacea

But I have strong beliefs about bad / the worst practices in many different areas of skills acquisition (esp. if I´ve got a lot of experience in these areas).
The advantage: Such practices are easy to spot :slight_smile:

“I don’t agree with Peter in everything”
Really not necessary. Communication lives from (at least minimal) differences otherwise communication wouldn´t happen.

48

Mark, it´s not about throwing a tantrum, being toxic / an asshole or something like that. It´s not even about your person because I don´t know you personally.

However, it´s the mindset / learning style that is characteristic of sub-par learners that is highly problematic. And an important factor here is “avoidance behavior”, which often is just harmful in many areas of life. See, for example, Strosahl / Robinson, “The Mindfulness and Acceptance Workbook for Depression”. Here you´ll find countless real-life stories.

And how do I know of (the consequences) of this learning style? Well, I had to deal with hundreds of learners in my life, esp. in language learning and math, who were like that:

  • “I´ll do it when I feel like it”
  • “I first need to get some rest / go on vacation”
  • “I must feel the need to do it”
  • "You must do it for me because I´m not able to do it (learned helplessness)
    etc.

And in many cases their usually non-academic parents had the same attitude:

  • “Learning must always be easy, fun and enjoyable. And if that’s not the case, then the schools/teachers are just bad.”
  • “If you have to learn something, you have no talent. That’s why it’s so difficult.”
  • Or vice versa: “If you had talent, you wouldn’t have to learn anything.”
  • “You simply must feel like it.”
  • “You should only learn stuff you love and avoid everything else”.
    etc.

Consequently, teenagers often followed your advice to the T:
“come back to language [P.B. or math, programming, etc.] when it draws you back in naturally.”
They did this for tests and also for final exams - and failed miserably.

As a rule, these teenagers never made it to university (although public universities in Germany cost almost nothing compared to the US). Sometimes it even took years until they found a (more or less simple) job…

“then this nonsense”
It may sound like “nonsense” to you because you have no relevant teaching experience and no problem awareness in this area. That´s why you don´t understand how harmful your advice based on avoidance behavior (in the long run) actually is.

As I said, in contrast, I have seen the disastrous consequences in real life for years. Sometimes the families (esp. the mothers) were on the verge of a nervous breakdown. And that´s not “fun” to experience.

Finally, another real-life example to illustrate how damaging avoidance behavior can really be:

I know several older people in their late seventies, eighties or nineties who refuse to do any endurance- and / or strength-based exercises. The result is: They get weaker and weaker, their bones break, when they fall they can´t get up by themselves, etc.

People may say that’s just “old age.” Yes, to some extent. But on the other hand, endurance and strength training are real boosters, esp. as people get older.

Following your logic, Mark, you´d recommend:

  • “just relax” - well, they already have a completely sedentary lifestyle. Do you want them to relax 24/7 365 days a year?
  • “do it when you feel like it” - endurance and strength training are “stressors” so people who haven´t trained for years will probably never feel like it.
  • “it must draw you in naturally” - no, habits are everything here.
    etc.
    The sad end result following your logic is: Older people tend to avoid such activities for as long as possible and become feeble wrecks who can barely move and help themselves.

If that´s not bad, then I don´t know what bad is.

In sum -
I´m attacking the “mindset / learning style” based on avoidance behavior in this context because it´s not only bad but also harmful!
And it’s a disaster that the learning industry is spreading this mindset/learning style like the plague.

However, it´s not personal…

Have a nice day
Peter

49

OK good catch. Let me rephrase it “he has strong beliefs about what is sub-optimal”.

Yeah on Israelis. I had an Israeli boss once. I learned a lot from that guy. But blunt AF and tough as nails.

Also hahaha not so sure that German females are any less blunt. I had one over here working with me from the Berlin office and man did she ruffle some feathers lol.

50

I actually really like what you have said and i think there is a balance to be drawn between what you are recommending and what peter has said.

I think finding content thats enjoyable in the modes that you suggested are great ideas. This doesnt exclude peters ideas from being employed, it just means to spend time finding something that is more compelling which is what steve talks about all the time.

I think to mention what peter has said, maybe more bluntly, I think he is right that we shouldnt just stop because of motivational deficit or lack of enjoyment, or anything else. This is important at least in my view because we will all go through periods of low motivation, or get tired / bored of content, and its important that we continue on for a few reasons.

Sustaining the habit will result in progress (even if its doesnt always feel like it), and if we maintain t the habit, our skills will improve enough so that we can do more enjoyable activities with the language.

So I think both of your advice can be reasonably employed, but I think peter does lie on the more highly disciplined end of the spectrum in this discussion. I do think sometimes we can over emphasize this and we from time to time, need to be kinder to ourselves, and give ourselves time. But i think its important to differentiate that need for a break from a temporary lapse in motivation (which i know has blurred lines).

Lets keep it supportive, no confrontation needed and lets look for the golden nuggets in everyones advice :slight_smile: you have all been super helpful!

51

Well said, @tjbandel!
However, let me clarify a few points:

  1. Habit-based learning doesn´t exclude the idea of “interesting / compelling content”. On the contrary, the more learners can choose content that fascinates them, the easier it becomes to feed their daily “habit demon”.

In short: Interesting or even compelling content is part of a habit-based learning style.
Learners should always strive for such content, but not give up (immediately) when the content isn´t so interesting, esp. at the A1-A2 levels.
Habits are always helpful, but esp. in the beginning stages (A1-B1) they are immensely helpful.

  1. Habit-based learning doesn´t exclude fun / enjoyment, but it´s against a “fun-first / fun-only / fun-always” attitude because:
  • it´s highly unrealistic
  • it´s the completely wrong mindset when learners try to do “hard things” (whatever they are) as it weakens them right from the start. And as soon as unforeseen und highly unpleasant experiences arise, fun-first learners are the first to give up.
    Usually “fun / enjoyment” will come the better learners get because they can start “playing at will”…

In short, the relationship of habit-based learning to fun is: Fun is a nice-to-have, but it´s not a must-have (in all cases)!

  1. Fluctuating emotions, will power, motivation (“feeling like it”, “it must draw you in naturally”, etc.), biorhythm, discipline, etc.
    Successful learners / high performers never rely on that because it´s trying to build a house on a swamp.
    In short: Establishing good habits is the way to go here.

  2. Avoidance behavior
    It´s to be expected because human beings are hard-wired that way: “seek pleasure, but avoid pain”.
    However, when it comes to acquiring higher / more challenging skills, then learners grow in their “discomfort zone” - not their comfort zone:
    “My confidence is built in my discomfort zone!” (David Goggins)

Therefore, cultivating our discomfort zone is a positive thing in the long run because that´s how we can increase our frustration tolerance and build our confidence!

On the contrary, learners without a high frustration tolerance tend to be the first ones to give up when things get unpleasant or even “ugly”.
This also means their confidence is often pretty low because they refuse to leave their comfort zone.

Examples:

  • Programming is fun until there are bugs in your program that you don´t find - and it might take days or even weeks to find them!
  • Math is fun as long as you come up with an elegant solution easily. It stops being fun when that´s not the case. And it may take a very long time to find a solution.
  • Running is fun until you don’t feel like being a casual runner anymore: “Elite runners often say that their ability to push through excruciating bouts of discomfort is integral to their race performance.” 6 Tips to Push Past the Pain | ACTIVE
  • As for the old folks who have given up on exercising altogether (see my comment above), I’ll just refer to legendary fitness guru Jack LaLanne:
    “Your health account, your bank account, they’re the same thing. The more you put in, the more you can take out. Exercise is king and nutrition is queen: together, you have a kingdom.”
    According to this family “[… ] he had been performing his daily workout routine the day before his death” - he died at the age of 96. Jack LaLanne - Wikipedia

In short, my thesis is:

People who fall between these two extremes should behave more like elite performers / learners because that increases their likelihood of success.
Unfortunately, too many people are attracted by the avoidance behavior that is characteristic of sub-par learners…

Thanks for the whole discussion!

Peter out.

52

WRT to how long it takes and what you can expect I have some kind of experience in that.

Background:
A bit more than a decade ago just after college I decided to start to try to learn languages. I had done high school french which was a total waste of time. I tried German with supermemo (precursor to anki). I learned a ton of vocabulary but I could understand none of the spoken German and I couldn’t speak. My pronunciation was my best guess of what German sounded like. Hard fail. I then a couple years later tried it with Spanish (memorizing Spanish vocab). I found I could understand some of it because the sound of the language isn’t too too far away from how it’s written. That was encouraging. So I then dove into the Latin community and also started plowing through written books of Spanish grammar. I also started watching a ton of telenovelas. After a total of about a year and a half I’d say I hit high intermediate and then over the next five years or so with minimal effort I’d say I’m close to advanced.
I then tried Japanese and failed again.

About two years ago I came across Benny Lewis and was intrigued. His theory is that you can learn any language in six months as long as you do it right. That motivated me to start investigating more. So I researched what a bunch of polyglots were saying and I concluded my method should work as long as it’s AUDIO vocab and not written vocab.
So I tried it with French (six months of audio vocab in anki combined with a ton of youtube). I hit low intermediate at about 4 months (listening comprehension only to be fair - not speaking). Then I found lingQ and I did that for the remaining two months in combination with youtube,.
It worked. I think I am roughly high intermediate at French comprehension based on what I can understand on youtube. So roughly 500 hours of effort over six months.

I tried the same with Russian just recently (six month challenge) but I also did lingQ from the start. After a similar amount of effort 4-500 hours I reckon I was high beginner (a2?) to low-B1-ish. Nowhere close to high intermediate though. I can’t understand Russian anywhere near to the same degree I can understand French. But the point is, it worked. So I decided to extend my six month stint to a year because Russian is a “hard” language in terms of time.

My conclusion is that Benny Lewis is wrong and the FSI is right. Benny is correct that you can get to high intermediate with a close language in 500 hours. He’s wrong that you can do it with any language. At least with my approach.
That said, I think it is very reasonable to expect that if you are listening focused you can get to functionality after 500 hours of effort in something like Polish or Russian.
You won’t get to bar-room conversations with a random stranger after 500 hours, however.

And I don’t have an actual answer for how long the bar-room conversations will take. I suspect FSI is right on that one. However. For the purposes of being able to do family stuff and FUNCTION I reckon 5-600 hours of effort will get you a big chunk of the way there. Especially if you have to speak because you’re actually interacting with Polish speakers.

Also: for me, it is motivating to see the stats increase because I can see myself getting closer and closer. I noticed for example that I suddenly hit an understanding breakthrough at about 5,000 known words in anki in French.
That concurs with the research (google “general service list”). I am not at 5,000 head words in Russian. I expect to get there in 2 months. Notably: LingQ is counting all variations of a word as a word and not just headwords, so my lingQ word count is way higher than my anki word count (3,500 high frequency head words and 2,000 random “interesting to me” words).

Hope that helps.

53

After reading through this thread I have come to to conclusion that if you are not learning a language the same way I am, you are doomed to either do better or worse than I am.
Joking aside, what is working well for me might be terrible for you, and vice versa, Personally, I hate studying grammar. I hate words lists. I love to read, and am happy to Kindle or LingQ lookup words up to nearly 20%. That‘s me. I do what I enjoy. You might enjoy other things, or perhaps have a more pressing need to learn on a schedule.
The key, in my opinion, to learning a language is not to learn in the most optimal way possible, but instead to learn in the manner you can truly stick with.

54

Ahaha that first sentence… but i appreciate the thoughts!

55

Dude this is the lingQ forums. You’re not supposed to be reasonable.

Yeah agreed. I have my suspicions about what is optimal for me. But I agree that it is likely not optimal for everybody. My reason is that the polyglots all do a variety of different things and they still succeed.

Really the one common denominator is they all work at it every single day for a substantial period of time.

56

Hi, Paul_Russell!

“instead to learn in the manner you can truly stick with”
If I were you I wouldn´t “generalize” this statement. Example:

  • Learner A uses Duolingo for 25 min a day 7 days a week for 2 years. After that time he / she has an extremely high score on Duolingo, but barely understands simple sentences in a conversation, doesn´t understand the news, podcasts, audiobooks, isn´t able to read articles, books, etc.

  • Learner B uses the ultra-reading-while-listening approach (or sth. similar) for 25 min a day for 2 years (reading more than 3 million words and listening for ca. 350 hours). Learner B has reached an advanced level in reading and listening comprehension. That is: He / she can listen to podcasts / audiobooks, read non-fiction books with ease, etc.

“not to learn in the most optimal way possible”
That´s a complete misunderstanding of this whole thread and skill acquisition processes in general because there´s no “optimal” way that works in every context for every person. No one knows what that even means.

Instead, it´s important to know

  • what the relevant bad and good practices are
  • why that´s the case (keywords: effectiveness and efficiency criteria)
  • and how to find the right personal mix of good practices for one´s situation and language level!
    In short, knowledge is power in all skill acquisition processes.

However, when learners stick to bad practices for years, they have to come up with highly “creative” excuses like the ones I heard:

  • “Yes, you´re right. Duolingo is ineffective, but the owl is so cute, isn´t it?”
  • “It´s useless, but I mean it´s free! What more do you want?”
    etc.

If you want to know why people come up with such treasures of absurdities, then say hello to “cognitive dissonance” and “sunk cost fallacy”: The Psychology Of Not Admitting Mistakes & The Sunk Cost Fallacy | by Candice Galek | Medium

Being in an equally absurd mood right now, I´d rephrase your last sentence: “The key, in my opinion,” is that there are no keys, only holes - all the way down. :slight_smile:

OK, must switch to programming in Dart / Flutter holes now…

Peter out.

57

From an academic and professional language instructor side I do agree with Peter.

Sometimes we might not like how the message is delivered if it is not the message we want. The hard truth is always better than some waterdown version of what someone wants to hear.

If you are asking for help and support of how to do something then take the hard truth that a professional will provide. But if you are asking for justification for your own choices and validation then pick and choose the responses that make you feel good.

If a year from now you have not reached a basic A2 or B1 level then realize that your progress or lack of progress is based upon the advice that has been given. As for the levels don’t state you are something without being formally evaluated by a professional native speaker. If you can’t carry on a natural conversation for 40 plus minutes beyond how is the weather, your name, and trivial information then you are not at a B1 level.

58

So this weeks stats using the ultra reading method:
838 Known words
1714 LingQs
343 LingQs Learned
6.12 hours of listening
54217 words of reading

Past stats in how I was approaching LingQ Beforehand:
A really good week:
685 known words
502 lingqs
444 lingqs learned
3.44 hours of listening
33594 words of reading.

A normal average week of learning (what I would consider an average week)
430 known words
257 LingQs
207 LingQs Learned
5.0 hours of listening
14792 words of reading

So now to follow the method over the coming months to see if it translates to functional improvement. I will keep you all updated!

59

FWIW, I’m feeling the same and I’m not even at intermediate 1 level in lingQ. I think the plateau starts pretty soon and it is demotivationg. I’ve doing book reading for 2 years now, and while my reading profiency might have improved, my production or listening hasn’t. Maybe it’s time to do youtube, podcasts… but I just don’t have the willpower. I don’t care about learning languages all that much.

60

Some people will tell you that you get listening for free if you just read. My experience says otherwise. Listening is a different skill than reading and you have to listen to practice listening. Likewise listening won’t teach you to read.