Nina, even though we don’t offer Serbo-Croat here at LingQ, I would be very interested in any list that you could produce for your language, at some point. I am sure others would also be interested.
My suggestion:
- there is / are / was / were + nouns
- in order to / in order not to: to do smth in order to get smth.
- it’s + adverb + infinitive: it’s hard to do, it’s easy to say ; it’s + adverb + that: it’s possible that…
- would like to + verb
- if : i don’t know if you know that or not
- if you (+ verb) … you can… (+ verb): if you want you can help
- this is no longer… or pronoun + no longer + verb
I think those should have analogies in all languages.
-perhaps keep the English as a master guide, and update/expand this with the best ideas - let people know of any updates - then have people (generally) keep to the headings and examples in the English, as a basic guide.
-I seem to recall Moses McCormick, and others, have a similar starting approach - without infringing on copyright, it would be worth comparing against similar lists for general completeness or usefulness
-it would be good to provide longer natural sentences, or links to dialogues - at some future stage
Some things that may be added:
-I’d rather, I’d prefer, rather than
-or else
-either this or that
-a little, a little bit, a lot, more, less
-relatively, better, worse, much better, relatively speaking
-for the “how much” section - how fast, how soon
Maybe some negative constractions like:
Why we can’t think about it? – Why don’t you tell me? – Not that it matters, but…
Impersonal ‘they say’ or ‘it’s said’.
@ Steve
Do we have to follow the script exactly as it is given?
Also I would do it for free or for points, because I don’t have a bank account.
No you don’t have to follow the script but it has to fit the sections/ Do a few as samples.
I would ask anyone interested to email me some samples of what they are doing so we all stay on track. Eventually I will decide what to use and how to organize it. For now please do what you think is best but make sure I get to see it before yo spend too much time.
Certainly we can reward people with points rather than money, since this is easier for all concerned.
Steve wrote: “53 patterns is a lot. I am hoping we can keep it to 25 or 30.”
25 patterns are nothing for a language like German, Russian etc. 25 lessons is very, very basic.
I cannot judge the situation in other languages, but for German and French a lot of lessons like this already exist. It is not that the patterns are a new idea. What really is needed is to give new learners a helping hand to get not lost by the number of lessons in the library. To help them where they should start.
Let me explain a little better. I would like 20 or maximum 25 lessons. Each one will feature a pattern. These 20 or 25 lessons will not cover the whole language. This would be impossible in any language. However, they should provide some of the basic structures, both for a beginner and for frequent review. It is just a matter of deciding what goes into them. I would also like some consistency across different languages. This should be possible. Please check out the list I created. It is not a definitive list, and I welcome suggested changes or additions.
Some such lessons already exist in our libraries such as the Patterns that I had done for English, Japanese and Romanian, and others added for Portuguese, Dutch and some other languages. I want to formalize this, standardize it, add a little bit of explanation and create some videos. These will then show up on my youtube channel.
I don’t think we should spread ourselves too thinly on too many patterns. Regarding all the French conversations I have hosted over the last few years I kind of thought of being inspired by the patterns French students have often trouble with. For instance, the negation. I noticed that students have trouble using “ne… pas, ne… rien, ne… jamais etc…”
Je ne mange pas vs. je ne mange rien. A lot of people say instead “je ne mange pas rien” (which is wrong)
What do you think about this way of taking on the problem?
Serge is right here, Steve
I’ve had at least 3 or 4 conversations in French and they would use," Je ne mange pas rien".
Je pense c’est une bonne idée Serge.
I agree with @serge33510. I will add situations when the “vous vous” (double “vous”) is used. I think Serge will do a great job, though, even without suggestions.
A few additional comments. I agree with Serge on the need not to spread ourselves too thin. I have decided to limit this to 20 patterns.
This series will be called "20 Basic Patterns in English (or whatever language). There will be only 20. Each pattern should have at least 10 examples, but we could expand the number of examples per pattern later if we want.
I will teach a video lesson for each pattern , and for each language. I may invite a native speaker to join me for this video lesson via skype.
This will not be an exhaustive list of all possible patterns in a language, just some basic patterns to get started, and to review from time to time. Nor will a person who reviews these patterns immediately start speaking correctly. These patterns are a different form of lesson from our normal lessons. Most of our learners’ time will still be spent on interesting and captivating content. These patterns are just a form of grammar review.
As much as possible I would like the patterns to be consistent across different languages, see my examples. There will be exceptions for patterns that are basic in some languages, and don’t cause problems in other languages.
Serge and Nina, yes, the negative and pronouns cause problems in many languages, not only French, and should be amongst the patterns.
Aren’t we working on the question the wrong way? Wouldn’t it be more judicious to ask students first what their problems are? Then it’ll be up to us (tutors) to provide the good answers that will help them figure out the patterns they can’t handle on.
@Serge
If the patterns are for beginners, they have no idea which language patterns will cause them problems. When you start a language, you don’t know if the patterns in that language are similar to the ones in your own language.
@mfr
The problem would be the same for an intermediate or advanced learner. Let’s suppose you teach French to a Polish, how can you know whether such pattern in Polish causes trouble in French to him as you don’t know Polish. But if you have hosted conversations with him you will have probably noticed how often he makes mistakes using a specific pattern. Given his mistake you will assume that this pattern is really puzzling to him. You can do that with a beginner as long as you regularly host conversations with him.
I think we have to start with a basic assumption about the kinds of things that people want to express in a new language. There may be specific issues that cause trouble for learners of a certain language group learning another language, but we can’t really account for this. I want this to be a universal list of the kinds of things that we want to express, and which are common to all languages conceptually, but handled differently. This is not where everything is learned and all problems are overcome, just a handy reference both for beginners and for refreshment. Here is the skeleton of what I have in mind. Please suggest changes and additions. There may be some additional sections for specific languages.
- Yes and no
Positive and negative statements.
- Who
Questions
People, names, pronouns
- What
Questions
Gender where applicable
Subject and object
this and that
- Where
Prepositions
here and there
- How
Prepositions
quantity
adverbs
comparison
- Whose, to whom
pronouns, prepositions
- Which one
relative clauses
- What kind
adjectives,
relative clauses
-
When - present
-
When - past
-
When - future
-
Possibility
hope, wish, plan, might, could, maybe , perhaps
subjunctive
- Probability
should, ought to,
subjunctive
- What if
conditional
- Preference
like, want to , prefer
comparisons
- Why
Reason, cause and effect,
- Connectors- reinforcing
Therefore, of course, consequently
- Connectors - contradicting
in spite of that, although, even though, even if, despite the fact that,
- Feelings and opinions
I think, in my opinion, in my view
@Serge
Right!
You, as a tutor, can recognize which patterns a learner has difficulty with, but I think the learner will only be aware of that at an intermediate or advanced level.
@Steve
I like that you have the 6 question words: How, when, what, where, who, whose, and why. Because at the beginning there will always be a lot of questions, when I was speaking/ semi-tutoring back then I used this sort of method/ pattern technique with the learner. It helped a little bit more and increased the learning progress, because he then started to memorize a bunch of questions from his phrasebook.
any progress?