American "diplomat" Victoria Nuland and her not so diplomatic invitation to "copulate" with the EU ;-)

Open Forum in English
41

@sebastian You are probably right about the level of German civilian casualties but then all of these numbers are a little suspect. I have seen numbers between 30,000 and 300,00 both for the bombing of Dresden and the Rape of Nanking. I think it is important to talk about these things and allow historians to do their research and present their findings. Best if politicians stay out of it.

The so-called Three All campaign of the Japanese Army in Northern China in 1941 is supposed to have caused the death of 2.7 million civilians according to research by one Japanese group of academics but this is challenged by others. After threats from right wing organizations in Japan, publication of this information was suspended. Note that the Japanese Prime Minister now goes around saying that depending on how we define the word “invasion”, Japan did not invade China. Nice.

The principle to me is that civilian casualties whether by nuclear bomb, or by the deliberate killing of every man, woman and child in a town, are equally tragic. Unfortunately this kind of behaviour has been going on since the beginning of history, it is just the means of destruction have escalated. The scale of this slaughter matters, of course, but so does the motivation.

In my view, and with hindsight, and not being a strategist of any kind, the bombing of German cities was more an act of revenge than a useful military operation. The wanton slaughter perpetrated on Eastern European civilian populations on a large scale by the German Army served no strategic purpose, on the contrary. It was simply indicative of the arrogance and callousness of the German army, high command and ordinary soldiers. The same can be said of much of the brutality of the Japanese army in China and elsewhere. But then this kind of behaviour is very human, in Rwanda they used machetes, in Europe they used muskets, and Genghis Khan used swords or whatever, and on and on.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki served a real strategic purpose. If we consider the fanatical “never surrender” attitude of the Japanese army, dying rather than being taken prisoner, civilians throwing themselves off cliffs rather than surrendering on Pacific islands, Japanese soldiers waving a white flag in order to entice American soldiers and then kill a few more of them, it was a fair assumption that resistance on the main islands would be ferocious. The two nuclear explosions and perhaps also the entrance of the Soviet Union into the Pacific War finally convinced the Japanese that resistance was futile.

As for Pearl Harbour, what strikes me the most there is not the scale of destruction but the scale of arrogance and foolishness of the Japanese military, expecting that the US would not fight back. It only took 6 months, until Midway, before the writing was on the wall.

42

“Ah, you will misunderstand me, whatever I say, about anything at all.”
Well I see you changed it to “Do Americans and Germans forgive” from just “Do Americans forgive?” which was a really strange question.

That’s all I say. Too much beer today to care

43

@Steve: “…As for Pearl Harbour, what strikes me the most there is not the scale of destruction but the scale of arrogance and foolishness of the Japanese military, expecting that the US would not fight back. It only took 6 months, until Midway, before the writing was on the wall…”

With the benefit of hindsight I guess you could say pretty much the same about Hitler’s attack on the Soviet Union?

That’s the thing about mad military dictators - those bums just don’t act rationally.

44

As for Victoria Nuland, this is the same person who wanted to suppress information that the attack on the US Delegation and killing of the US Ambassador to Libya was a coordinated terrorist attack because this information didn’t fit the State Department position that it was the result of a spontaneous uprising. She is quite typical of much of the “aren’t I so clever” so-called educational elite in the US. using foul language, especially for a woman, is almost a badge of honour and identification for women of this category.

In fact, if we remove the foul language, all she said was, “it is annoying that the EU does not agree with the US position on the Ukraine”. My response is, why is the US meddling in the Ukraine? It is for the Ukraine and the EU to work out their relationship. Given the historic relationship between the Ukraine and Russia and geographic proximity, it is also normal that Russia is involved.

I suspect most Ukrainians want to remain independent, want to maintain a strong relationship with Russia and want the standard of living and institutions of the EU, without Brussels meddling in their affairs. Unfortunately they seem unable to put in place a government that could bring this about. Thus the frustration.

45

@ rider

Agreed. Although the leadership in Tokyo was not as mad as the group in Germany, just delusional. Is there a difference?

46

“With the benefit of hindsight I guess you could say pretty much the same about Hitler’s attack on the Soviet Union?
That’s the thing about mad military dictators - those bums just don’t act rationally.”

I guess Germany was expecting to be attacked by the Soviet Union sooner or later. The only thing that´s worse than attacking the USSR is being attacked by the USSR. I don´t know what was going on between Japan and the USA, but they might have been in a similar situation.

47

I’ll stick with my generalization,although I agree that it is one. As for feeling threatened by women in positions of authority, where did that come from?

48

“…Why is the U.S. meddling in Ukraine”

Well…because it’s the U.S. after all, we meddle.

Meddling, I would go so far as to claim, is the goal in this situation. The U.S. has a goal to assert its dominance in world affairs, and through this American business giants can gain at least a very significant influence in the area.

I actually like the term meddling to describe this, because it really is an excellent way to summarize what has been the foreign policy of the U.S. for the past 100 or so years, to meddle. I don’t think I’ll ramble on about that too much though, for now.

49

Paule

“I guess Germany was expecting to be attacked by the Soviet Union sooner or later. The only thing that´s worse than attacking the USSR is being attacked by the USSR. I don´t know what was going on between Japan and the USA, but they might have been in a similar situation.”

I don’t know if Hitler was expecting to be attacked by Stalin. There is a theory to that effect out there. However if we look at Mein Kampf we see that Stalin should have expected to be invaded by Hitler. Just a few examples.

[W]ithout consideration of “traditions” and prejudices, it [Germany] must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave nation.
— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 1

For it is not in colonial acquisitions that we must see the solution of this problem, but exclusively in the acquisition of a territory for settlement, which will enhance the area of the mother country, and hence not only keep the new settlers in the most intimate community with the land of their origin, but secure for the total area those advantages which lie in its unified magnitude.
— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 3

For centuries Russia drew nourishment from this Germanic nucleus of its upper leading strata. Today it can be regarded as almost totally exterminated and extinguished. It has been replaced by the Jew. Impossible as it is for the Russian by himself to shake off the yoke of the Jew by his own resources, it is equally impossible for the Jew to maintain the mighty empire forever. He himself is no element of organization, but a ferment of decomposition. The Persian empire in the east is ripe for collapse. And the end of Jewish rule in Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state.
— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 4

Nor did the idea of Lebensraum start with Hitler. For more information see

As for Japan, its imperialism also has deep roots. For a summary description check out

But then Germany and Japan were just playing catch up with the established Imperialist powers.

50

Paule wrote:

“I guess Germany was expecting to be attacked by the Soviet Union sooner or later. The only thing that´s worse than attacking the USSR is being attacked by the USSR. I don´t know what was going on between Japan and the USA, but they might have been in a similar situation.”

Yes, the “Präventivkriegsthese” came up just after the war. Today we know, that Stalin didn’t want to attack the German Reich and that Hitler and his generals were certainly aware of that. Stalin even threatened generals and politicians who mentioned a possible first strike on Germany. In fact the USSR was still not prepared for a war at the beginning of the 1940s. Most experienced officers were murdered during Stalin’s Great Purge and the army was still poorly equipped and trained.

51

@Steve @Sebastian

Thanks for these interesting posts. You learn something new everyday.^^

52

Interesting information about the legal situation with regard to the possession and the sale of “Mein Kampf” in Germany and Austria on the one hand, and in anglo-american countries on the other hand:

(…)

Unvermeidbar ändert sich die Rechtslage jedoch am 30. April 2015, wenn die 70-jährige Schutzfrist nach dem Tod eines Autors, die auch für Hitler gilt, endet. Ab diesem Moment kollidiert der Nachdruck von “Mein Kampf” nur noch mit den Gesetzen gegen nationalsozialistische Propaganda respektive Wiederbetätigung.

Nach gegenwärtiger Rechtslage darf “Mein Kampf” in Deutschland derzeit ohnedies verkauft werden, wenn es sich um Exemplare handelt, die vor dem 30. April 1945 gedruckt wurden. In Österreich ist der Privatbesitz legal, ebenso ist es erlaubt, dass Bibliotheken “Mein Kampf” zu Studienzwecken verleihen. Auch der Verkauf durch Antiquariate ist gesetzeskonform. Allerdings ist alles verboten, was der Verbreitung nationalsozialistischer Gesinnung dient. De facto müsste der Antiquar also sicherstellen, dass der Käufer “Mein Kampf” nicht zu Propagandazwecken benützt.

Geringe Berührungsängste
Im angloamerikanischen Raum sind die Berührungsängste mit dem Buch längst geschwunden. Selbst ein international agierender Händler wie “amazon.com” bietet “Mein Kampf” an, und zwar sowohl in englischen Übersetzungen als auch im deutschsprachigen Original. Viele der Leserkommentare weisen in die gleiche Richtung wie diese Meinung: “Wenn man verstehen will, weshalb der Holocaust geschah, kann man es nicht vermeiden, die Worte des Mannes zu lesen, der dafür verantwortlich war.”

53

I would say “Mein Kampf” is required reading for any serious student of Hitler and/or 1930s German National Socialism. I don’t really see how it’s possible to understand these things fully without seeing the literature?

(Having said that, though, I think the copies printed now should be critical editions: i.e. they should contain footnotes to alert the reader to lies and disinformation, etc.)

54

I would love to read this book in its original German. Any idea where I can get a copy I. Austria Robert? Would I have to find a dealer in some dark alley in a seedy part of Vienna?

55

ad Colin: Because of our “Verbotsgesetz” (also called “Wiederbetätigungsverbot”) it is very difficult to get a copy of that book. Personally, I never felt any more desire to read anything written by Hitler than anything written by any other psychopath. I do understand, however, that other people might be interested in the book for several reasons.

You might be able to get a copy of the book at one of the university libraries. I’m not sure if you’ll be allowed to take it home with you, though. Because of our somewhat complex legal situation with regards to “Mein Kampf” most bookstores will be reluctant to even offer the book.

56

Read it Colin. I hear it’s quite a terrible book though. Boring

57

ad Colin: It might actually be easier to get a copy through amazon.de (I just checked). They actually sell it (as an annotated version; the content is the same).

Just make sure you don’t write a “favourable review” on the contents of the book and publish it on any Austrian site - you’ll get into trouble for that. (I’m not kidding).

58

I wouldn’t pay for that nonsense anyway Colin.

Google mein kampf german pdf yields lots of results… like

http://www.google.ch/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harrold.org%2Frfhextra%2Fdownload%2FAdolf%2520Hitler%2520-%2520Mein%2520Kampf%2520-%2520German.pdf&ei=YeH3UuL5EsrV4ASZnIGYBA&usg=AFQjCNGzi5pjlowfRJO2V_dzJewdAYA0qQ&bvm=bv.60983673,d.bGE&cad=rja

Not sure if it’s a “legal” copy. Does Bavaria still own the copyright? Normally I would say buy the book… but hey, it’s Hilter, who cares

59

Thanks for the link. I would only read it for interest. I don’t expect it to be a classic piece of literature.

60

Apparently Bavaria has it, although only until 2015, and it is banned in German Print. Bavaria to Ban Printing of Hitler Book Mein Kampf After Copyright Expires - DER SPIEGEL

Here’s an interesting article. Jewish charity's £500,000 from Mein Kampf

I think that giving the money to a Jewish charity is a wonder irony. I’d have taken the money.