LOL Paule. Funny video, thanks
@Julie - “…my blood still boils because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki…”
I don’t know if anger makes a whole lot of sense. It was sad more than anything. Like Jay said, it was a war. I’m a bit torn on the subject to be honest. The focus that the two bombs always get seems a bit strange in light of the rather extensive firebombing that the US was delivering to Japanese cities by the end of the war. By the end of the war, Japan had more or less lost its ability to defend itself from air raids. I think you can argue that the atomic bombs just did the same thing that the US was already doing, only faster. It killed a lot of people but would the loss of life been more or less with a ground invasion? I don’t know the answer to that but I feel that it did save lives of the Allied forces.
And to add to Shaun said, the US, UK and China (under Kai-shek) also demanded that Japan surrender about a week before the Hiroshima bombing or face “prompt and utter destruction”:
Exactly… I was going to wait til Julz responded… But yeah, anger makes ZERO sense. We had already killed over 100,000 in Tokyo alone but no one ever cries for them. hell, we could have nuked Tokyo instead… But we choose smaller targets…
Plus that line “test out our toys…” is extremely insulting. What, we woke up one day and decided to senselessly kill 230,000 people with our new toy?? If you believe that you are god damn insane.
This will fix all of our problems -
Funny video. I’d vote for the guy. Although… His list includes “Bear attacks” as a positive
@spatterson - What, you don’t think America used the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as human guinea pigs to test out their nuclear bombs?!!
And why the hell did they drop the second bomb?!!
My memory’s a bit rusty, but I read copiously on the issue, including survivor stories, in my early twenties.
Oh wait, there’s more…I read survivors’ stories how Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission “hospitals” were set up in Japan, where the surviving sick and maimed flocked to, thinking they were going to finally receive treatment…
But instead, the “doctors” did not treat the survivors; they just studied them over periods of time, endlessly questioning, filling out forms, and observing. They weren’t treated with respect or compassion. They felt like guinea pigs.
Also, who said I believed Robert or anyone else was a US hater? It was your seeming arrogance (my mistake), that you thought America was some kind of hero that the rest of the world sycophantically sucked up to when it suited.
But…America’s not called “Amerocentric” for nothing…(tongue in cheek). Even Aussie newsreaders echo our sentiment on air at times by saying “Bloody Yanks! Gotta love 'em!” every now and then… We do love the “Yanks” (a friendly Aussie term), but we also roll our eyes. Of course, Americans can’t understand that. I just hear, “How come everyone hates us?!”
@Shaun – Yeah, the “toy” thing is pretty insulting but I started that. To be fair, it was kind of intended to be. I don’t particularly like that we spend so much money on things that the only good use for them is killing. The sarcasm and dark humor I used is hard to pick up sometimes when read in online discussions like this.
@Will - “and we have the same problems as you do, with illiterate foreigners invading our southern borders to steal our jobs”
Wow. That’s hilarious.
“@spatterson - What, you don’t think America used the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as human guinea pigs to test out their nuclear bombs?!!”
Umm… sure you can believe that if you want. It’s wrong and flat out pathetic. The first bomb was U-235 enriched from U-238. We didn’t have enough 235 to test… so yeah sure “human guinea pigs”. Thank god we had a war going on so we could try out our new toys… But the real reason was to end the war.
“And why the hell did they drop the second bomb?!!”
Because they didn’t surrender?
“Oh wait, there’s more…I read survivors’ stories how Atomic Bomb Casualty Commission “hospitals” were set up in Japan, where the surviving sick and maimed flocked to, thinking they were going to finally receive treatment…
But instead, the “doctors” did not treat the survivors; they just studied them over periods of time, endlessly questioning, filling out forms, and observing. They weren’t treated with respect or compassion. They felt like guinea pigs.”
Oops, guess they shouldn’t have attacked us and started that war eh? Really, this is terrible but that was NOT THE GOAL of the bombs. Personally, I would say that’s one of the evils of war/post-war. But anyway, like we said, the bombs killed 237,000 people… and the US was already carpet bombing the rest of Japan. The war was over but Japan just didn’t want to give up. What was our option? Ground assault? That little island of Iwo Jima cost 26000 Japanese lives and 20000 American lives. Upscale that to the whole country. Carpet bombing? The death toll would have been outrageous.
“Of course, Americans can’t understand that. I just hear, “How come everyone hates us?!””
Ahh well that’s because you non-Americans really pisses us off at times. This is my experience with some Europeans, Australians, and New Zealanders: We can say a bunch of bad things about the US (we start wars, we wiretap, etc, etc) and they all cheer with you “Yeah America needs to change”. Ohh but my god, the second you say something good like “America comes to the rescue” (statistical fact…) suddenly you’re the god damn “egotistical, patriotic” American and get the eye rolls and all that bullshit.
And I love how everyone lumps Americans into one category. My coworkers will routinely say something like “You’re not a real American” when I do/say something contrary to the stereotype. And I always respond “Well you’re not a real Romanian” – all Europeans are the same right? Right? I mean, the US is the size of Europe. We’re all the same. Europeans must all be the same.
Whatever Julz. Say, is your blood still boiling after what Cortez did to the Aztec?
@spatterson - I didn’t even study the history of what Cortés did to the Aztecs.
I was more concerned with why I was getting bashed by my father for studying Japanese in high school. I wanted to know why relatives whom fought the Japanese on the Kokoda track spat at even the mention of Japanese.
I wanted to somehow understand the contrast of my wonderful, caring, gentle native Japanese teacher, with the known atrocities of the Japanese soldiers in the war (and with my father, for that matter!). When I read for countless hours about Allied civilian prisoner-of-war experiences, I hated the Japanese soldiers with a passion.
But equally, I wept for the innocent Japanese civilians when I read their testimonies. And I admire the grace and the strength of several now elderly Japanese survivors who stated that they had forgiven America (as seen in a documentary a few years back). I identified with them as though they were my own grandparents. And bawled my eyes out at their great strength of character and wisdom.
And as for my blood boiling, as you quoted, frankly I have to limit what I read in the headlines even, let alone history, as I’m way too sensitive to the plight of others.
Just a note on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I googled for wartime civilian casualties in WWII. I don’t know if these numbers are accurate , but they are close.
The top three countries are
USSR 10,000 ,000 or more
China 7,500,000 or more
Poland 6,500,000
Yugoslavia 1,500,000
then somewhat down the list
Germany 700,000
Japan 350,000
I am not sure it matters whether you are burned to death in a firebomb or bombing attack, randomly slaughtered by marauding troops, killed in an artillery attack or die in an atomic bomb attack.
When we compare civilian death in China with that of Japan, it helps put things into perspective. I think that if the US had attacked the main islands of Japan, the military casualties on both sides, and the civilians casualties amongst the Japanese population would have greatly exceeded 350,000.
None of this justifies massive killing of people, nor is a reflection of present generations in Japan or the US.
Just for the record. 700.000 civilian casualties in Germany is not even close.
"And I admire the grace and the strength of several now elderly Japanese survivors who stated that they had forgiven America (as seen in a documentary a few years back). "
What an interesting choice of words. Forgiven. You do know who started the war right?
My family is half German (they live in Hamburg still… what’s left of them after WWII). I called my cousin up this morning and asked if they have ever heard a German say “We forgive the Americans”. The answer was, of course, never. We didn’t nuke them… but we sure did destroy hundreds of towns and killed WAY more than 230,000 civilians.
For the record, I’m not a Japanese, German, or Austrian hater. I’m one of those that believe the sins of the past have been paid for many times over. We’re not still angry at Germany for roasting the jews, gypsies, and gays… are we?
“And as for my blood boiling, as you quoted, frankly I have to limit what I read in the headlines even, let alone history, as I’m way too sensitive to the plight of others.”
I would focus that anger towards current events. Not 70 year old events.
@Spatterson: “…“We forgive the Americans”…”
Yeah, but do they forgive this guy:
(Not sure all of them do…)
Here is the French version of what Victoria Nuland says:
“Que l’Union européenne aille se faire foutre !”
It sounds really bad.
@spatterson - What can I say? I don’t sit around festering with anger every day. I was trying to say that I’m oversensitive about the plight of others. But I was angry this morning when I woke up to read aussie headlines about the arrest of a Lebanese man in connection to the problem of secret child-brides in New South Wales, Australia. Like, what the hell, this is Australia?
I want to mention that much of American literature about Hiroshima and Nagasaki for years after the war was propaganda. I imagine you’re a lot younger than me. We were fed scenes of eerie, silent cold “statues” of buildings and remnants of people near the epicentre, and were given the impression most people died in seconds. They were the lucky ones. We never heard facts about tens of thousands of women and children still alive with their hair on fire, some running with empty eye sockets, flesh melted onto their chests, et cetera. And the terrible days and months following.
As for those elderly Japanese who told horrific accounts of their loss and survival in the documentary: I’m in awe of their courage and strength to be able to forgive. It’s similar to the attitude of Australian Bali Bomb victims: many are still living with disfigurement, pain and disability. Some have expressed their private battle to forgive, in what they see as necessary in order to triumph over what the extremist Moslems did to them and their loved ones.
By the way, the Japanese dropped 457 bombs on Pearl Harbour. However, most of the world doesn’t know the Japanese dropped 681 bombs on Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia. (Though we had much less casualties due to sparser population).
@Jay - you raised a good question: Do Americans and Germans forgive?
Do Americans forgive?
What a terribly racist question. Will respond later. Watching Arsenal get destroyed by Liverpool
@spatterson, I forgot to say…my maiden name is German. Yep, I’m of German ancestry (though 7th generation Australian).
I’m “racist”?!! I was mostly thinking about Jay’s link about Arthur Harris.
Ah, you will misunderstand me, whatever I say, about anything at all.