@bamboozled I assumed you knew. We don’t use any actual data points to convince one another over here. Just personal anecdotes and armchair hypothesizing.
In fact, I’m even more incredulous if someone links me a study that I won’t read. It could say anything in there!
@khangle Thanks!
Well done by the way!
So B2 for speaking.
Perhaps if you’d practiced speaking before taking your IELTS test, your score would have soared reaching a C2 level - just as it did for listening (C2) and reading (C2).
It seems though you agree that it is important to practice speaking because you mention becoming rusty without practice.
It has nothing to do with children Vs adults unless you’re specifically talking about time available, which was exactly my point. Or unless you believe there are ‘special’ baby brains.
The two biggest factors that separate Adults from children are (IMO):
Possibly 3 if you factor in 1st language interference. That said, if you spend the time in total immersion that factor diminishes massively (in the long term).
We’re mainly talking about time (IMO). You’re comparing adult learners who, on average, spend around 2-3 hours/day (and probably not even everyday), for 2-3 years (again, this seems to be about the average time period it takes learners to come to the conclusion that acquisition “doesn’t work”) with children who spend 7+ years in total immersion, all day, everyday.
Show me an adult who’s spent 7 years in total, full time immersion, with zero time spent in their native language, and I’ll show you someone who has fully acquired the language. Even tones can be acquired if you spend the necessary time, and replicate (as best you can) the environment.
The issue isn’t the theory of acquisition itself, but rather that adults are expecting the same results without doing the same thing. Intensity also seems to play a big part. There’s a huge difference between doing an hour/day for 10 years Vs 7 hours/day for 18 months. You have to completely saturate the brain for acquisition to happen, which is something those who argue against it don’t seem to realise. The argument against always seems to completely ignore intensity and time. It comes from people expecting full time pay for part time work.
Just to address the other point, no child listens to their native language and then 'suddenly wakes up one morning able to speak their target language." The reason: because they have a HUGE survival need to communicate, and so they don’t have the luxury to put it off until further down the line. Most adult learners do have this luxury.
I hope this doesn’t come across as too preachy, The truth is nobody yet knows; we’re all speculating. It’s just that I, and those who support language acquisition theory, include the biggest sample size there is (native speakers) in our argument, whereas you, and those who don’t, don’t.
Every skill set in any language requires deliberate practice to achieve decent fluency, and speaking is no exception. In my opinion, those language learners at stage 5 may not have the skills to quickly develop a high fluency in speaking a tonal language such as Mandarin. For the sake of argument, they must acquire the following skills so they can speak Mandarin fluently in a relatively short time.
A nearly impeccable listening comprehension of watching any TV series or shows in the target language.
Being fluent in exchanging text messages with others spontaneously with minimal or no grammatical or syntactical errors.
Record reading practice from time to time to bridge or eliminate the gap between you and a native speaker.
I am somewhat baffled by the idea that the tone could be internalized incorrectly for those language learners who have achieved exceptional listening comprehension skills. I don’t see a problem with the main focus on listening and reading comprehension in the beginning stage of learning a language.
All skills acquired in language learning follow an S growth curve, although the progress may vary among language learners due to many different factors. Once you build a solid foundation, the major framework will be accomplished much faster.
There are two skills that I consider to be crucial not only for listening and reading comprehension, but also for achieving excellent fluency when speaking the language.
On the other hand, the challenge question is similar to the following, given that every language learning skill requires deliberate practice.
Is there any fluent Mandarin speaker (heritage language learner) who will be able to read Chinese at the beginning?
On a side note, it is interesting that a Mandarin speaker would pick up and become fluent in Cantonese through immersion, and the same thing for a Portuguese speaker to learn Spanish, but not the other way around.
Just an anecdotal example: My Cantonese native-speaking daughter-in-law tells me that she became fluent in Mandarin by playing with Mandarin-speaking friends while on holidays during her childhood. She went to an English school rather than a Chinese school. As a result, she did not learn to read in either Chinese language/dialect and cannot do so to the present day. She has no problem in listening to movies or news broadcasts, nor in interacting in conversation in any of her three languages.
You have to practice speaking to become skilled at speaking.
Communication is the cornerstone of languages and language learning.
The input methodology is just our entrance ticket into getting into a communication mode faster.
Everyone starts by developing a little snowball of understanding or a Katamari of understanding that they use to roll up similar content that is ready to become understandable for them and thus increase their arsenal in that language and improve their ability to communicate.
The assertion that kids observe a silent period (as an example of keeping quiet until understanding is mastered) is not true.
Kids vocalize as soon as they’re born. They are such little beings and incapable of forming words. It’s a romantic idea of language lore to assume they’re these little sages just soaking up everything uniformly until they’re ready to speak.
No, they have a Katamari ball, just like we L2 learners, where they’re rolling up words and phrases ready to be assimilated and they practice very early with what little they know, as soon as they can, to let parents know what they want.
Per the topic, it’s very important to start speaking in Chinese as soon as you have a willing partner to be your language parent.
The best way to quickly learn a language is to have a relationship (romance, friendship, or close tutor) where the two of you constantly ask each other questions and provide the answers in the L2.
You won’t get there as fast with input-only. Nor will you get there as fast just scheduling tutoring sessions where you go on a 30 minute or hour monologue by yourself, thinking that you’re getting your money’s worth by dominating the conversation 95%.
The input methodology beats the drum of engaging in interesting, compelling content. What could be more engaging than for people to ask you specific questions about your experience, your political views, passions, and so on. Having a native who is sensitive to your current (and increasing knowledge base) is perfect to listen to and interact with.
I enjoy my tutoring sessions on LingQ and iTalki, but I enjoy the free conversations in chat rooms possibly even more. I love being brought on stage and asked pointed questions about a specific topic, or how my week is going, or what fun or educational things my children are up to. Talk about active listening and the pressure to respond! It’s sink or swim and it’s great. I’ve been lucky enough to speak with Noriko sensei as well in these chat rooms several times for free. Last weekend, I spoke with a French lady for two hours and only ended it because I was hungry, had to go to the bathroom, and wanted to spend time with my family. That was two hours of speaking, intense active listening and also engaging her with interesting questions. You can’t get communication like that by watching a movie or passively reading a book.
I say speaking is not only important but communication becomes the driving enchilada for excelling in our L2’s.
I’ve heard a few Mandarin learners say, Thank God I kept going with my studies, I was about to quit because I was hitting a low intermediate wall and not progressing, but I pushed through.
I actually think that’s false patting yourself on the back. It’s not that you kept persevering with the input approach and that’s what did it, it’s that you found someone (or a group of people) who wanted to communicate with you often and THAT was the reason your Mandarin took off.
I don’t think the speak from Day1 approach is wrong; the idea is just a little too extreme for me. I don’t want to be in a chat room just introducing myself and not knowing how to say anything else.
I need at least an A2+ or B1- level to start engaging confidently.
I don’t think it matters when you start speaking (A1+, A2, B1, B2) but the sooner the better as soon as you feel comfortable, because no matter when you start you will eventually blow the doors off of the input-only crowd if you keep with it.
Again, conversations that are balanced and engaging for both sides, spoken 100% in the L2. No monologues where it’s just you speaking crappily, and no long breaks to “relax” back into the native language or ask questions in the native language about the L2. If your partner is good and knows your level, they’ll be able to explain themselves in the the L2. And you stay in the L2 as well and don’t forget about them. You have to keep it interesting for them as well even if you’re paying or the session or else your time won’t be as effective as it could be.
@llearner
“it is interesting that a Mandarin speaker would pick up and become fluent in Cantonese through immersion, and the same thing for a Portuguese speaker to learn Spanish, but not the other way around.”
Reliable source for that claim?
BTW, anecdotal evidence is just that … anecdotal 
After learning Br. Portuguese for ca. 1700 h (having learned Latin, French, and Spanish first), I’m pretty sure that there’s “nothing particularly difficult” about Portuguese that a native speaker of Spanish can’t master.
The only two major “challenges” in Portuguese are:
Apart from that, it’s almost a “free ride” for Portuguese and Spanish native speakers…
(it’s the same in the case of Dutch and German, for instance).
Plenty of children with autism or anxiety do not output in their native language until they are near fluent. Pushing them to speak can lead to L1 mutism. As a classroom language teacher as well I don’t really like to push output. However when you are a child or when you are in a Comprehensible Input classroom, you have lots of opportunities for one-word or non-verbal interactions
Plenty of “practice” approaches put output way too early and expect you to be able to output almost as much as you can comprehend from day 1, which definitely leads to language trauma, and I bet that is what they are trying to counteract–but they have definitely gone overboard.
THAT SAID as a self-motivated language learner who is following CI I don’t think there is one right time to start speaking. The problem is their one-size-fits-all approach.
@Michilini
“Speaking with good tones requires simultaneously training yourself to hear tones correctly and while reinforcing this with accurate mimicry.”
The “secret” (if there is one here) is probably:
If that’s not the case ,“outputting” (by practicing self-talk, for example) won’t help much
to improve one’s tones. It’s the same for pitch accent in Japanese.
Apart from that, there are several key problems with the “input-only” approach:
The engagement level with the L2 (as pure “pattern recognition”) is simply too superficial.
I’ve tested this with Portuguese - and I’m not happy with the result.
It matters “what” you digest.
Digesting random compelling content is simply not good enough if you want to become “fluent” in everyday language. In short, if learners want to become good at everyday conversations, they should use content with a lot of contemporary dialogues.
The claim that all language processing is “unconscious” is controversial. There’s definitely a place in SLA for deliberate practice /intentional learning (that includes: explicit pronunciation training, explicit grammar study, and artificial SRSes for collocations, etc.).
And my personal pet peeve: the input approach is great because it leads to “effortless” learning. However, people who cling to effortless learning tend to be one thing above all else: subpar learners in any kind of practical skill acquisition process (SLA, math, programming, sports, whatever.). As soon as things get “tough”, such learners tend to give up almost immediately…
In sum,
it’s best to avoid input or output “extremes” and resort to an IO mix depending on the time budget, the specific goals, and the language level.
PS:
where you can “understand close to everything”
That’s absurd.
There are thousands of job domains nowadays with their own lingo, specialized knowledge, methods / theories, etc. No native speaker can master all these domains. So, it’s never possible to understand close to everything in your L1.
And if all native speakers fail miserably in this regard, so do all L2 learners…
I think everybody is different. That being said as a child I didn’t speak until I could speak in complete sentences. And I devoured books way before kindergarten. I’ve also known people that did it like this and were the problem comes I believe is the input source. Because once you start speaking you alienate people by your word choice like you’re speaking above them. The hardest thing is to learn yourself and understand yourself it doesn’t matter what the success is of 100 people if you do better doing it differently.
I think the main reason Matt and others advocate this is that speaking early screws up your pronunciation. Unless you have listened hundreds of hours to your target language, you will not even recognise if your pronunciation is off.
This guy from Dreaming Spanish explains it quite well:
That’s an unproven hypothesis. Not a fact. For Mandarin it contradicts all the evidence I’ve seen and experienced for myself. ALL of the speakers with the best pronunciation I know spoke early. I’ve documented several cases on my podcast but there are plenty more.
By the way, many learners who have listened to THOUSANDS of hours of Mandarin but haven’t drilled tones still can’t hear their tones are off. I see this all the time.
In my view Chinese pronunciation isn’t usually dictated by the number of hours of extensive listening you’ve done. It’s not uncommon for learners to reach impeccable listening comprehension skills but borderline incomprehensible pronunciation. Of more importance is the type of listening activities (e.g. repetetive listening & shadowing etc) drilling phonetics (especially tones).
@ PeterBormann
“Reliable source for that claim?
BTW, anecdotal evidence is just that … anecdotal :-)”
I was referring to this adoption of a particular language as a matter of personal choice rather than the complexity associated with the language.
Some new immigrants in an English-speaking country speak different languages with some degree of mutual intelligibility. The language they initially choose to converse in and how it continues to dominate their daily interaction is the most intriguing. I had seen many people gradually become fluent in Cantonese even before acquiring similar competency in English.
@Michilini
“Speaking with good tones requires simultaneously training yourself to hear tones correctly and while reinforcing this with accurate mimicry.”
@ PeterBormann
"The “secret” (if there is one here) is probably:
If that’s not the case ,“outputting” (by practicing self-talk, for example) won’t help much
to improve one’s tones. It’s the same for pitch accent in Japanese."
Unless you are in a classroom or language exchange session to deliberately learn the language, you will seldom get direct feedback from the speaker in real life. It should be considered reliable if you can detect the difference between you and the native speaker or a mispronounced tone. If self-practicing does not help to some extent in acquiring the proper pronunciation, then speaking atonal Mandarin must be unavoidable without intervention from a native speaker. Even if this holds to be accurate, I still wonder if it will be possible for following native speakers to learn or improve their pronunciation by self-practicing.
Any native speaker learns to speak with a Beijing, British, Andalusian, … accent.
Any native speaker learns to speak the most standard form of the language because they may pronounce or mispronounce some words somewhat differently due to regional variances.
@ Kimojima
“The assertion that kids observe a silent period (as an example of keeping quiet until understanding is mastered) is not true.”
Indeed, language learning can be as dynamic as you have described because language is much alive and undoubtedly an integral part of our life. It just happened that even if there was such a silent period, it did not prevent me and many others from speaking mandarin fluently as a native speaker. We did not communicate much in Mandarin until we graduated from elementary school. It was not a conscious decision that we made not to speak Mandarin although we were fluent at the time. Let’s say that speaking Mandarin in our daily life was not expected.
My unique experience may not resonate or be helpful to others. But I want to point out that a typical native Mandarin speaker possess all skills to speak fluently.
In the case of listening and speaking skills, they may not be developed in parallel with the same rate of progress. Per the topic of practicing tone in Mandarin, it requires deliberate practice over time to achieve decent fluency in Chinese. I just can’t imagine anyone would listen to audio for hundreds of hours without learning and practicing Pinyin. Skills in language learning are interconnected, and I tend to focus on the smaller goal to work on so that I can check my progress to determine if things are going in the direction I expected.
Sure, it is a hypothesis, but it makes sense to me. When you read texts you typically subvocalise the words in your head and if that is off, you will ingrain that bad pronunication even when you do not speak (but read). I recently started learning Spanish and even though I have listenend to some Spanish, my own pronunciation is still off and I notice it when I read texts.
I agree that repetetive listening, shadowing and drilling phonetics might also work, so in summary, there may be different paths leading to Rome.
“Sure, it is a hypothesis, but it makes sense to me. When you read texts you typically subvocalise the words in your head and if that is off, you will ingrain that bad pronunication even when you do not speak (but read).”
That’s not an early output problem. That’s an overrelying on reading and inefficient methods problem.
“I recently started learning Spanish and even though I have listenend to some Spanish, my own pronunciation is still off and I notice it when I read texts.”
Have you drilled IPA? If your goal is to have near-native pronunciation that would seem sensible to do from the start. Spanish phonetics are especially challenging for non-native speakers (trust me it’s my L1).
“so in summary, there may be different paths leading to Rome.”
Really can you cite any success stories of late output for Chinese?
Do not be too certain of what you know or do not know. It is not as if there were any randomised controlled studies on this. There are plenty of quiet learners nobody has even heard of that are much much better than you or me. I have followed such people here on Lingq. Some of them get to 50k words in Chinese in 1-2 years following an input-driven approach. I would not be suprised at all, if they would very quickly become orally fluent, if they practiced intensely for 2-3 months, because they already know tons of words and their contexts. I have noticed this myself: When I listen to a podcast or YT channel and someone asks “how do you say XYZ in Chinese?” it automatically pops up in my head even though I mainly focus on input.
“Spanish phonetics are especially challenging for non-native speakers” I thought Spanish was like an easy language when compared to the other monstrosities out there?
Also to the both of you. Pronunciation can develop (improve) as one ventures through their language learning journey right? Speaking bad habits won’t stay too long since you suck at your target language compared to your native language anyways? And people manage to stop saying certain things or in a certain way with their native language. So it wouldn’t it be easy to break bad speaking bad habits since they aren’t even learned that well in the first place?
@Hagowingchun absolutely right, languages are always a work in progress. After years of speaking English I came across a phonetic description and noticed that I had been mispronouncing the “v” (as in vine) sound. I had simply transferred the German “v” to English and never noticed anything being off. So what, I fixed it (more or less) and I’m sure I’ll eventually come across another inaccuracy. No native speaker of English has ever commented on my accent or pronunciation, before or after.
Personally I don’t understand the focus on pronunciation, to me this is easily the least important aspect when learning a language, what you say is far more important. But I realize perfectionists exist, and that’s fine, although I would prefer if they didn’t try to convince everyone to follow their creed and adopt their methods…
Addendum: Steve Kaufmann has a good video on perfectionism as well. We’ll Never Be Perfect - YouTube
@bamboozled it won’t let me reply to your post specifically. But yeah ran into a few words like this in Spanish like a few days ago and my stress on them was generally right but needed some tuning. I find fossilization is definitely not the case we are constantly un-learning and re-learning daily. Also, I think pronunciation is important because there are some many people in the states that just speak English with their languages phonetic system and its honestly hard to understand these people even though they can speak in full sentences etc. So I understand the pronunciation argument haha.
“Do not be too certain of what you know or do not know. It is not as if there were any randomised controlled studies on this. There are plenty of quiet learners nobody has even heard of that are muchmuch better than you or me.”
When did I say that I “know” anything? If there are learners out there who have better tones than me and only started outputting after reaching high levels I’d love to hear from them and would happily interview them on my podcast. I’d be fascinated to hear their story.
“I have followed such people here on Lingq. Some of them get to 50k words in Chinese in 1-2 years following an input-driven approach. I would not be suprised at all, if they would very quickly become orally fluent, if they practiced intensely for 2-3 months, because they already know tons of words and their contexts.”
What does the number of known LingQ words have to do with anything? It’s irrelevant. I basically stopped using LingQ after around a year of doing so intensively. For multiple reasons that should be obvious there’s just no connection whatsoever between LingQ word count and oral fluency in Chinese.
“I have noticed this myself: When I listen to a podcast or YT channel and someone asks “how do you say XYZ in Chinese?” it automatically pops up in my head even though I mainly focus on input.”
I hearby extend a warm invitation to you to dicuss these issues with me on my podcast in Chinese.