“normally above our league”
It’s surprising how much it’s possible to understand from a novel without knowing many of the words. LingQ takes some of the fun out of it for me. But it depends a lot on the novel. If the story is unusual in some way, it can be hard to understand what’s going on.
As for the efficiency, I don’t really know. I have understood the “comprehensible input” should ideally be something just above the current level, but not too much.
You’re right, Stewart. A Brazilian Portuguese podcast with transcripts seems to be a rare species compared to other languages like Spanish.
Anyway, my “go to podcasts” for BP are / were: Ta Falado, Lingua da Gente, Fala, Gringo!, and Café Brasil. See: Best Portuguese Podcasts for Language Learners - Second-Half Travels
I also tested “BrazilianPod101”: https://www.portuguesepod101.com/
They have some interesting texts / audio files on their website, too.
But it should be enough if you download some of their audio files to your computer and import some of their texts into LingQ during the 7-day trial period. A subscription isn’t necessary, in my opinion, since you already have content flexibility through LingQ.
Besides, I’m a big fan of BBC News in many languages. So here’s “BBC News Brasil” (text + audio) on LingQ: Entrar - LingQ
Hope that helps
Peter
PS .
See also:
I have understood the “comprehensible input” should ideally be something just above the current level, but not too much.
Yes. See:
The problem is that it’s much more complicated in practice than it sounds in theory (i = current level, i+1 = next level):
-
It depends on the text category.
For example, there are some texts, esp. demanding novels, technical, scientific or philosophical texts, that are intrinsically difficult - even for native speakers.
In other words, the difficulty of a text depends not only on its vocabulary, but also on the subject per se (and the intertextual relations within a network of texts). -
It depends on the prior knowledge and experience of the reader / listener
Example: It’s hard for me to understand “The Lord of the Rings” in Brazilian Portuguese at the moment. But it’s much easier to understand Portuguese texts on international politics, (military) history, sociology or computer science because I studied these subjects at university. So I’m familiar with many research traditions (terminology, methods, theories, and the relevant research questions). -
The quantity of unknown words in a text
How many unknown words does “+1” exactly represent in a new text? -
The quality of the unknown words in a text
Not all words are created equal. Some words, e.g. termini technici, might be crucial for understanding a text, but other words might just be of marginal importance. -
Words can be entry points to textual networks, i.e. theories, philosophical approaches, etc.
Example: When you read something about “object-oriented programming” in a non-specialized text, it’s not enough to understand what an “object” means in the common sense.
In computer science, this expression refers to a specific programming paradigm as compared to other (functional, imperative, etc.) programming paradigms.
So, in order to “really” understand what “object-oriented programming” means, you need to know what “classes”, “object instances”, etc. represent in this context. And you also need to have some practical programming experience.
Otherwise, a reader might “think” that he/she under- stands this expression, but, in fact, he/she doesn’t - due to lack of background knowledge and experience (see point 2)). -
Knowing the vocabulary by reading isn’t enough
An L2 learner may understand certain words in his/her target language when he/she reads them. But he/she might not understand the same words in a fast-paced conversation due to lack of processing time, omissions, contractions, unclear pronunciation, word plays (à la verlan in French: Verlan - Wikipedia), etc. -
Audio readers à la LingQ
These tools are awesome because they allow us to tackle texts that might be at an i+2, i+3, etc. level.
But again: If the subject is intrinsically difficult, even audio readers aren’t enough because you might also need a lot of background knowledge and experience (see points 2 and 5).
Therefore, even German native speakers aren’t able to read Hegel’s “Phänomologie des Geistes” (“Phenomonology of Mind”) just like that. It takes years of intensive study to understand how brilliant this approach is.
See, for example: The Phenomenology of Mind | work by Hegel | Britannica
For movies, I don’t anymore essentially…at least in LingQ. You’re correct, there’s a lot of context lost and it gets extremely confusing knowing who’s talking and there may be sentences that don’t make a lot of sense without the visual. To me it wasn’t particularly enjoyable in this manner. So I’ve added LLN for this, if I’m interested watching a Netflix series/movie. And I simply do it for entertainment. It is NOT a primary source for learning for me.
Youtube videos tend to be a bit better for importing into LingQ. For one thing, you do have the video if you want to follow along, but also, at least the things I’m importing, most of the content makes a lot more sense in terms of reading as there is either nothing visually happening, or there’s a lot more background/description of the topic at hand. These I will import into LingQ and study.
In my experience, the “i+1” hypothesis is really mostly in play for unassisted input. Any assistance you use will increase the number after the + sign. If you’re reading on LingQ, you may be able to do “+2-3” and if you’re doing comparative reading, you can tackle material higher than that.
As I mentioned above, it’s feasible to tackle advanced material from the very beginning with the use of comparative reading. In my experience, this method speeds up your levels of comprehension significantly.
(Note: This post does NOT imply you do not need speaking practice or exposure to other media. – I should add this as a signature to all my LingQ posts.)
what kind of youtube videos do you watch and how do you go about looking for them?
@t_harangi.
I think we need some more detailed stats in this context.
I just purchased Grange’s “Crimson Rivers” in Portuguese, and I’ll test it in terms of reading comprehension with “The Hobbit” and Harari’s “Sapiens” for Brazilian Portuguese at an intermediate level (B1).
Being in “experimentation mode” here I’ve got a few theses:
Thesis 1: (Long) novels are the most complex, non-specialized texts we know so, for beginners / intermediate learners (levels A1-B1), it might be more efficient to resort to short stories and non fiction texts first and use novels later (at an level B2 and upwards).
Note: This is a pure efficiency perspective. It’s not about the effectiveness of novels for reading comprehension. And I agree with @t_harangi that we can also tackle more advanced novels by resorting to bilingual reading and AudioReaders.
Thesis 2: It’s not reading that makes you fluent. It’s fluency training (listening comprehension, pronunciation training, and speaking) that makes you fluent. But reading all kinds of texts is a practice in expanding one’s vocabulary, which enhances fluency. In short, reading brings fluency to a higher level, but it doesn’t produce fluency (automatically).
This includes that it isn’t necessary to read 1.5-2 million words first before you can start your fluency journey.
My position here is: It may be more efficient to achieve fluency first (by speaking early or not), and then focus on vocabulary enrichment as an L2 learner. That’s the modus operandi of native speakers: speak fluently first, then expand your vocabulary.
Thesis 3: Not all novels are created equal when it comes to SLA.
- Some novels are intrinsically difficult - even for native speakers. So, as an L2 learner, knowing many words and using AudioReader doesn’t change that fact.
A little test for English native speakers: just try to read Joyce’s “Finnegan’s Wake”
- Non-contemporary novels aren’t a good choice for SLA (levels A1-B1) because too much of their vocabulary is obsolete.
- However, even some contemporary novels, e.g., from the fantasy genre, may not be a good choice for SLA (levels A1-B1) if the vocabulary is too difficult or not useful for everyday interactions.
- Criteria for contemporary novels that are useful for SLA (levels A1-B1)? The’re
- not too long
- have a simplified vocabulary
- contain a lot of dialogs,
- and are related to everyday interactions.
Personally, I’d say this is the case with graded readers and abriged text versions (even shortened classics when the vocabulary is “modernized”).
Let’s see if Grange’s “Crimson Rivers” fits this category.
A suivre
I like “real life” type of videos and documentary like videos. I found “Easy German” early on. I’m a patron and you can get the transcripts for the you tube videos and podcasts. I import these. From there I mostly just would check certain videos/channels that would pop up and see if they had real subtitles ( not autogenerated). I think a lot of these I found on a post one of the other members here (Sergey I believe) updated with good youtube channels that often had good subtitles.
Another thing I can recommend is create a separate channel from your main youtube account and dedicate it to the language you are learning. Add new channels there, search in the target language and you’ll start getting other recommendations in your target language.
This is currently where I’m at with my Russian!
Super annoying that I can read novels without much issues, but I can’t even put together simple sentences correctly. On the other hand I’m very happy that I can read literature in Russian as it’s super interesting.
But, how did you solve the fluency disaster problem? Would love to know if you managed to fix it.
I’m trying now to build a playlist on LingQ with more conversational material. and hopefully that will boost my own conversation skills.
And I also have 1 - 2 x 1h ITalki lessons a week.
Hi, Magn0733!
Well, first my French got “much” worse. After a break from French of about 18 months (because of the army), I was a wreck in all areas of French (listening, speaking, reading, writing, grammar, and culture).
For the first two semesters, it wasn’t even clear if I’d really survive studying French, at least at a university level. But, I was able to reverse that trend 180 degrees in the following semesters
What I did? Everything. That is: Reading a lot (esp. magazines and newspapers), listening a lot to the radio (esp. the news), speaking, writing, translating, and grammar exercises.
But that wasn’t enough. The real “boost” came from working and studying in France for about 15 months because this is more than a simple question of “skills” (knowing enough language patterns in an automatic way, for example). Fluency is more of a “mind” thing, i.e. the feeling of self-assurance coupled with a certain nonchalance to be able to express yourself in the target language - even if you don’t have the vast knowledge of a native speaker.
Can you achieve this level of fluency without living in a foreign country where your target language is spoken? Definitely, esp. with all the media we have at our disposal nowadays!
So, what could you do?
- At your level (B1-B2 / B2 or above), you can still follow @t_harangi’s advice to read contemporary popular fiction (e.g. crime novels),with lots of dialog (if you haven’t done so far). However, you should use audiobooks or audio dramas to complement your reading. But this isn’t enough if you want to achieve oral fluency in everyday interactions.
- Listening a lot (!) to fast-paced everyday conversations between two or more native speakers is key, in my opinion. This can mean listening to talk radio, interviews, podcasts / (Youtube) videos with guests, or contemporary and realistic TV series (soap operas, sitcoms / comedies, dating shows, etc.). However, you should avoid media formats that aren’t contemporary / realistic (e.g., “The Witcher”, “Vikings”, “The Last Kingdom”, etc. and their Russian pendants) or have low word-density (like many movies). News is also not so helpful in this context as it usually contains too little everyday interaction (but it’s also an ok choice at the beginning when soap operas / sitcoms, etc. are still to difficult to understand).
- It’s best to import the transcripts / subtitles of the episodes into LingQ and start with assisted listening. For example: reading first, then listening 3-5 times unassisted. Or: reading and listening simultaneously, then listening 3-5 times unassisted. Or: reading first, doing some SRS exercises, then listening 3-5 times without help, etc.
- You can combine points 1-3 with some active speaking and writing exercises by making an oral/written summary of each episode / book chapter. You could then use these summaries both in speaking sessions with your tutors and in other writing forums.
- You should talk to your tutors about 1-2 times a week. But the most important thing is what you do outside of these sessions (= points 1-4)! This includes:It’s a good idea to be prepared in these sessions (almost) all the time, at least in the beginning!
I could write much more about these topics, but I think you get the idea.
When will you see a big improvement in oral fluency?
It’s hard to say and it depends on several factors (e.g., the target language, the topics, your prior knowledge, etc.), but from my personal experience I’d say after about 400-500 h of listening and about 100-150 h of speaking with your tutors or other native speakers.
Note: It doesn’t have to be “active” (fully focused) listening all the time. An active and active / passive listening “mix” should be enough. For example as follows:
- Session 1: Comedy XY, episode 1: reading + active listening using LingQ (with / without SRS).
- Sessions 2 and 3 (or more): Just active-passive listening while doing some mindless activity and using a dedicated device like a “dumb” MP3 player that you can use “everywhere”.
Hope that helps
Peter
.
All the research says reading a book is good for you. Better even than listening to an audiobook or reading one on an e-reader. It reduces stress, promotes comprehension and imagination, alleviates depression, helps you sleep and may contribute to preventing Alzheimer’s. Reading is active; watching TV is passive.
Thank you so much!
That’s some great advice. will try to adapt as much as I can.
Though working in Russia is unfortunately out of the question, I still think many of the other points are more than doable! 
And sounds reasonable with the 500 hours. Listening. Currently I’m at a measly 150 hours on LingQ so 500+ is a good goal to set.
I’m also watching a bit more anime now as they usually don’t do the “Show, don’t tell” and just describe everything they are doing. But I think there’s a difference between translated shows and native shows, so gotta find some Russian series I can watch.
You’re welcome!
It would be great if you could give us an update on your progress in Russian in a few weeks.
It’s always interesting to know what worked for you and what didn’t!
Good luck
Peter
Sure will do, if I remember to.
Sorry to remention this guy again who tracked his numbers but he just released a very detailed video to summarize his daily routine/activities for how he passed the fluency exam in 1.5 years from 0. Although he never appears to mention doing any 1 on 1 speaking sessions so I’m not sure how well his speaking ability is so definitely keep Peter’s numbers in mind for that. 1.5 Years To JLPT N1 - A Timeline - YouTube
I used to be inspired by videos like this, but after having gone through my own journey with multiple languages, I often find these “how I did X” videos somewhat pointless for a few reasons:
– Their suggested methodology is reconstructive, meaning, in real life, the narrator likely didn’t have such a structured and disciplined approach during their journey, they’re just retroactively summarizing either the parts they found most useful or the parts they feel a structure should be applied to, even though they were just feeling it out at the moment.
– A large number of them are really based on time commitments and geography that’s not applicable to most people. You can learn an enormous amount on any subject in 1.5 years if you have the luxury of allocatable time. In 1.5 years, even if you only do 1 hr each day, you can become conversant in a language. With 1.5 years of 2 to 3 hrs each day fluency becomes doable, but of course that’s way more time than most regular students can dedicate to a language.
And with 1.5 years of “this is all I’m doing” – AND I’m living in the country while I’m doing it – you’d have to be academically challenged not to get into the high proficiency levels.
– And finally, a lot of internet polyglottism is what I call “performative language learning.” The very goal of engaging with the activity is to do it faster, better, easier, so they can make a video about it. That’s why you’ll end up seeing videos like “how I learned French just by channel surfing.”
This is not how most of us experience language learning, and that’s not why most of us do it.
Of course one can get some good ideas from these videos here and there, so I’m not saying don’t watch them, I’m just saying take them with a big grain of salt as a lot of their claims are inevitably exaggerated.
Well said. Most videos with these titles must be taken with very big grains of salt. Since I don’t know the guy, and even if I did I wouldn’t be able to say if everything he said is accurate without being his shadow. But I will say I’ve gone through the “how I did x” gauntlet for language learning and have narrowed down over time what is/isn’t useful information pertaining to myself about practices used and benchmarks achieved over period of time as well as what results are more likely realistic vs being just plain BS results. So overtime I’ve boiled down a pretty fine list of people/forum posts/blog posts/videos that have really done well at speaking well about how someone went about achieving a language goal in the high fluency range with a relatively strict specific course of action and outside the country of their target language (him included). T_Harangi you are one of these people for me on a couple posts I’ve found of yours on LingQ And this guy I honestly have to say has probably produced the best instructional guide shrunk down into a half an hour video (instead of a 300+++ video language channel) which essentially follows a path created by the AJATT personas but he leaves out explaining all the “Whys” and doesn’t waste time defending methods. He just says and visualized very well with tables, pictures, and stats what his goal was and step by step how he did it even while being a full time student, having a job and learning an Asian language but living in Germany. He’s not married with kids and his job didn’t demand any attention outside of his work, so yes, what he did is no replicable by many. But as you said with 1 hour a day you could achieve a lot in a 1-2 years with consistency obviously. But this just happens to be his story, and not many people lay out EXACTLY what they did and it’s helpful to have someone else’s map to look at as we can make a guide for ourselves, even if we can only replicate a certain % of it.
Yes, I agree. And thanks for the kind words, Stewart!
Any recommendations for Brazilian podcasts with transcripts?
See this LingQ thread where we collected some Brazilian Portuguese podcasts with / without transcripts: https://www.lingq.com/pt/community/forum/open-forum/help-brazilian-portuguese-list?post_id=292360