Sub titles a benefit or hindrance in language learning?

I’m prepared to admit that the problem is on my side, I might be exaggerating, doing it wrong, or maybe I just need to sit through a couple of shows and everything will sort itself out.
My point was that the use of target language subtitles might allow learners who can already read, learn how to understand the spoken language. I love audiobooks but the speakers tend to pronounce all the vowels and consonants and real people often don’t?! Sorry I don’t quite know how to describe it, and there is also additionally the rate of speed, which doesn’t help either.

As for books I have read and listened to: primarily translated popular non-fiction / self-help books and such.
Currently: Ray Dalio’s Principles, take a listen yourself:

Podcasts with multiple guests, vernacular language, and accurate transcripts would probably help a lot, though currently I’m not aware of any, will have to keep my eyes open.

@toroboro
“It is not helpful for any learner to second guess whether exposure is good or not.”
The point isn´t “exposure or not”.
The point here is: “Which kind of exposure?” - because not all types of exposure are the same.
And the “types of exposure” are exactly what each and every language learner should “second guess”!

Or to give you another example from the domain of strength training.
You could write for example something like:
“It is not helpful for any athlete to second guess whether strength training is good or not.”

However, in calisthenics (i.e. bodyweight training) there are four dimensions of strength:

  • endurance strength
  • max strength
  • explosive strength
  • skills strength (which includes balance, coordination, etc).

Experienced bodyweight athletes do not only distinguish these dimensions of strength, but they also know exactly how to train and combine them!
Inexperienced athletes often have no clue what they’re doing and are rushing forward completely blindly…

The same is true, mutatis mutandis, for language learning…

“I love audiobooks but the speakers tend to pronounce all the vowels and consonants and real people often don’t?!”
I agree. That’s a problem in all languages: Narrators / voice artists, language teachers, etc. often pronounce their sentences very clearly while native speakers tend to be quite “sloppy” in this regard.

It might be a bit different for “audio dramas” with many different speakers…

“primarily translated popular non-fiction / self-help books and such.”
I love non-fiction books in general. But if you want to understand everyday dialogs better, contemporary fiction with a lot of dialogs is a better choice.

In French, for example, that could be the books by Jean Christophe Grangé. So if learners read the e-book and listen to the audiobook of “The Crimson Rivers” (“Les Rivières Pourpres”), they’re well prepared for the eponymous movie with Jean Reno:-)

If you’re still at a B1 level in Chinese, non-fiction and self-help books are an excellent choice because (contemporary) fiction can be quite difficult.

However, as soon as you reach a B2 level, contempory fiction (e.g. the “e-book - audiobook” combo) is usually the way to go for making more progress in reading and listening comprehension. And that should also make your life easier if you want to understand TV shows in Chinese.

Have a nice Sunday
Peter

First, do you know of studies that are both scientific and representative, comparing the English proficiency of learners within Europe? Having firm data would be a good first step clearing things up.

Secondly, maybe this is institution is more reliable: https://www.ets.org/s/toefl_itp/pdf/toefl-itp-test-score-data-2020.pdf
Dutch speakers seem to be represented at least, can’t find anything on Scandinavians though.
In 2019 they had some data:
https://www.ets.org/s/toefl/pdf/94227_unlweb.pdf
Both seem to support my thesis that German learners of English are not that much worse than their Scandinavian / Dutch / Portuguese counterparts.

“First, do you know of studies that are both scientific and representative, comparing the English proficiency of learners within Europe?”
Something like http://www.surveylang.org/ comes to mind.
Unfortunately, they only tested pupils in various educational systems of the EU in 2012.

Apart from that, I’m not aware of any detailed language proficiency tests that really assess all four basic language skills in a representative sample of the European population. In my opinion, the effort involved is far too high.

Therefore, internet-based tests are used, e.g. for determining the vocabulary size in English:

In contrast, the results of the Toefl tests are only interesting in the context of this institution…

I love reading subtitles while listening. I usually do the dialogue with the target language subtitles.

I don’t think it’s a crutch at all. Yes, you won’t have closed captions in real life, but language acquisition is from associating sounds with the words. I personally can’t skip this step in the process. After a lot of exposure and usage of the words that I encounter, I become less reliant on subtitles.

There’s a channel on YouTube that I follow, and listen to the video a couple of times with the subtitles, then after learning those unknown words, I try to start to listen without the subtitles and see how much I can recognize.

@toroboro:
“any normal person though is not learning for the sake of learning and pure act of learning is not intrinsically motivating for us”
The distinction here isn’t “normal person / abnormal person”, but “successful learner / unsuccessful learner”. And my job was: to make learners successful!

Anyway, this reply to Davide (in a concurrent thread) is also relevant in this context:
Unfortunately, many learners (not only in this forum, but also beyond LingQ) suffer from a strong confirmation bias.

I think fellow teacher, @tbinder, put it quite well a few days ago in another thread:
“If you are asking for help and support of how to do something then take the hard truth that a professional will provide. But if you are asking for justification for your own choices and validation then pick and choose the responses that make you feel good.”

Many (inexperienced) learners tend to conflate “self-worth and skill development” (at least that is my experience-based hypothesis). Therefore, they need to protect their (fragile) self-worth when someone problematizes/criticizes their learning style, habits, etc.
The preference for confirmation bias is then the self worth protection mechanism par excellence.

Unfortunately, for sub-par learners (and, esp. in private tutoring, I had to deal with too many of them) that’s the path to social hell, i.e. at worst: no job - no future.

More experienced (and I might add: more successful) learners separate sense of “self worth” and “competence” / “skill development”.
The huge advantage of this conscious separation is: Their ego or sense of self-worth is ok, while they are able to restructure their “competence / skill development” constantly - and that’s why they can improve non-stop.

This doesn’t mean that such learners can avoid “confirmation bias” completely, but they don’t need to use it as a self worth protection mechanism - because there’s nothing to protect :slight_smile:

@Peter,

It’s possible that we’re describing two different end goals here.

If I can understand a science fiction TV show in my target language and I can have a bar-room conversation on any topic I’m interested in with a native speaker then I have hit my target.

My goal isn’t to read Dostoyevsky (sp?) in Russian or Rouseau (sp?) in French. I don’t care. I want to understand TV shows and be able to function well in the spoken language.

For example: I speak Spanish fluently at a very high level and can hold conversations in pretty much any topic. I also understand a variety of accents plus mangled street Spanish.

Can I read Cervantes? Probably not. But I don’t plan to ever take a University level course in Spanish. Nor will I ever need to give a C-level board-room presentation or university lecture.

So from that perspective, I’m not sure that a reading based approach is superior to an audio lexis memorization plus exposure approach for my end goal.

If my goal was to be completely rounded and be able to read and write at a university level maybe.

That said at the end of the day if it turns out that ultrareading is the most optimal method and mine is 30% less efficient then so be it. But it might be the other way around for my particular goal. There is no way to know without running a test with pairs of twins.

That said, I believe I will give ultrareading a try once I’ve gotten to my desired level at Russian. I might enjoy being able to read science fiction in Russian, which I currently cannot.

It may be time to face up to reality!
Are you ready for that Peter?

Maria, this is the reality that I have constantly struggled with in the past:

I had many (esp. male) teenagers as students who told me that they "weren't readers" (neither in their native language(s), e.g. German, Polish, Turkish, Greek, etc., nor in their L2s, i.e. English, French, Spanish, etc.).

So the logical conclusion seems to be to avoid reading (and writing) altogether and use only (audio)visual media, e.g. comics, YT videos, TV, streaming services, etc. for language learning.
However, if you dig deeper (which I usually do because it’s a kind of “déformation professionelle” of mine), then “fun orientation” often equals “avoidance behavior.”

That is: they can’t read well, so they find it “difficult and unpleasant”. And that’s why they try to avoid it, creating a vicious circle: they read (and write) less and less, find it more and more unpleasant, therefore avoid it more and more, and so on.
I´ve seen this avoidance-based behavioral pattern in many skill acquisition processes, e.g. in:

  • sports, esp. strength training / calisthenics
  • math
  • programming
  • language learning (both in L1s and L2s!)

Avoidance behavior is very tempting for many learners, i.e. children, teenagers and adults, because it gives them temporary relief - while having the potential to ruin them in the long run (e.g. being a “functional analphabet” in our modern society is a disaster, IMO).

It’s quite easy to come up with solutions that are based on non-avoidance behavior but, of course, learners must know what to do in such cases…

In short, in cases where “avoidance behavior” is the underlying cause, learners should (almost) never choose the “fun = avoidance solution” (e.g., watching TV exclusively and avoiding reading word-dense material altogether).

In sum:
Sometimes “fun” is the answer in skill acquisition processes, but it is not when fun equates to “avoidance behavior”!

It’s a sign of an experienced learner (and teacher!) to know the difference…

“For example: I speak Spanish fluently at a very high level and can hold conversations in pretty much any topic. I also understand a variety of accents plus mangled street Spanish.”
That’s a typical use case for reaching a B2-C1 / C1 level by means of ultrareading-while-listening.

Maybe there’s a misunderstanding here. Ultrareading (while listening) refers primarily to contemporary non-fiction and contemporary (popular) non-fiction.

If you want to read, e.g. in French, Jacques Derrida’s “De la grammatologie”, etc. trying to understand how the “deconstruction of texts” works then “ultrareading” isn’t sufficient because that’s a tough academic subject (btw, I wrote my master’s thesis in Romance Studies about it and I can say clearly: speaking French fluently is nice but in this case not enough!).

“Can I read Cervantes? Probably not. But I don’t plan to ever take a University level course in Spanish. Nor will I ever need to give a C-level board-room presentation or university lecture.”
As I said, (ultra)reading is high-volume reading and listening of contemporary non-fiction / popular fiction (and this includes extensive reading for pleasure - just fast-paced, i.e. with an elevated audio speed as the “pacemaker” for the reading speed!).

On the other hand, academic texts are a “whole different” ball game.
That is: you can’t use ultrareading for understanding difficult texts by Hegel, Nietzsche, Derrida, Luhmann, etc. because you won’t understand a thing - not even as a native speaker of the language :slight_smile:

Nota bene:
As soon as you reach a B2 level, contempory popular fiction with a lot of dialogs (e.g. the “e-book - audiobook” combo) is usually the way to go for making more progress in reading and listening comprehension. And that should also make your life easier if you want to understand TV shows…

Just out of curiosity: what are you avoiding right now? It is rather not productive to spend so much time writing in not very popular forum with people you are not like to convince to anything anyway. It look like avoidance strategy that can screw you over in a long run, don’t you think?

@toroboro
reg. “avoidance behavior”
Working on three e-books (socio-emergent communication, ultrareading and anti-fun-learning) at the moment. So it’s the same “construction site”.

And testing some ideas with Davide, xxdb, Toby, tjbandel and others is helpful to a certain degree because I’m directly integrating their feedback into my books :slight_smile:

But I agree: I shouldn’t overdo it.
Therefore:
toroboro 1 : Peter : 0 :slight_smile:

So you understand that it is ok to do stuff that are “helpful to a certain degree” just for fun of it.

If it does not take time from your work (let say you allocated 5h for your books every day and you are not wasting this time here) it is just free and fun bonus isn’t it? It helps to certain degree and does cost nothing (you are not able to work effectively more hours anyway so you could not spend this time more productive).

Additionally you get some extra motivation to work harder on those books since it will give you more arguments for those rather unproductive internet fight you enjoy.

I would say it pretty the same situation with casual exposure. Except watching TV in foreign language is for sure more helpful.

I would call it 2:0, but I think you get to have 1 point for fairplay spirit ; P

@toroboro

“that it is ok to do stuff that are “helpful to a certain degree” just for fun of it.”
Definitely.

I’m not against fun or pleasure per se. It’s just not realistic to learn a challenging skill (e.g., math, programming, Japanese, whatever) and expect the whole journey to be a pleasure cruise with no problems.
I mean, it’s called a “challenging” skill for a reason :slight_smile:

In that sense, I’m more of a “fun-second” proponent because a habit-based learning style is the base (in contrast to a learning style that relies primarily on volatile states of the mind such as fun, pleasure, motivation, will power, etc., which creates too many problems in the long run).

My position is also that learners should always strive for content control and look for the most interesting content possible
(and that’s where content-flexible audio reader software à la LingQ shines!).

Unfortunately, esp. at the beginning stages of our language learning journeys, that’s not always possible.

However, the “superbeginner” series of “Dreaming Spanish”, for example, does a pretty good job at this absolute beginner stage: Fast Things - Superbeginner Spanish - YouTube).

I’d say we need more content like this for (absolute) beginners in all languages…

@toroboro
“Except watching TV in foreign language”
Again: I’ m not against watching TV, reading comics (I’ve been a huge comic fan myself for decades), etc., but I wouldn’t make them my main or exclusive resources for language learning.

So, if a learner says to me:
“Hey, Pete. I usually read, read while listening to or just listen to word-dense material in my study sessions (let’s say 1 or 2 Pomodoro blocks per day), and in the evening I like to watch TV or Netflix shows in my L2 to relax.”

My answer would be: “Great routine - keep up the good work!”

But if the same learner says to me:
“Hey, Pete. I can only watch TV / videos, but I won’t use any printed books, e-books, audiobooks, podcasts or other texts because they are not fun!”

Well, then we have to dig deeper because “fun” is probably not the real reason here :slight_smile:

Subtitles help me. When I see an unfamiliar word while watching subtitles, I can write it down and memorize how it is spelled. I am currently writing research in English on economics. At Economics Assignment Help: Only High Quality - AssignmentBro Canada I found professional writers with better language skills to help me correct my texts.

I know exactly what you mean, natural spoken Chinese is nothing like the Standard Mandarin we hear when learning from textbooks/CDs. But then again, I think this applies to all languages. We do the same in English.

Yes,I agree with you, and as a chinese native speaker, I truly know the daily expressions in Chinese that is very different from text book !

哇,你的 LingQ 页面非常有用。作为一个母语为中文的人,我正在学习日语和英语,如果你有任何关于中文写作技巧的问题,也许我可以帮助你!!我的 discord:Amandalin#4304,邮件链接:lmm7726@gmail.com
WOW your LingQ PAGE is very Useful. as a chinese native speaker, I’m learning Japanese and English, if you have some questions in Chinese writing skills, maybe I could help you!! My discord:Amandalin#4304, and mail link : lmm7726@gmail.com