Starting over. Your experience with LingQ?

Open Forum
21

The first thing I would say is you won’t be starting truly “over”. All time you spend with a language is helpful, even if some things are not the most effective or efficient.

The next thing I will point out is that LingQ is a large collection of tools and you can choose how you use them (or do not).

To try and summarize LingQ as neatly as possible: LingQ makes content more accessible, more quickly. It does this by letting you import most content with a written component, giving you quick access to community definitions and dictionaries, tracking which words you have seen, your own definitions and your self-reported knowledge of that word.

I use(d) LingQ in a few different phases. I will caveat my experience with: The languages I did this with have a high degree in common with English. I think I would have needed a “Phase 0” to get a toehold in the language if it were further away from English.

In the beginning I targeted 500 - 600 Known Words per week and tried to read as much as possible in a 1 - 2 hour window. Everything I read was something I had at least some familiarity with, even if I had not read it. I would read every chapter of a book 2 - 3 times. Once just reading. Once reading with the audiobook. And optionally a third time of just listening to the audiobook. During this time I put a lot of time into creating LingQs with accurate translations and tags (e.g., Gender, Tense, Case, etc.). When listening and reading I would try to “hear” what was on the page. I would look at LingQ’ed words and treat them like a flashcard. If across different pages I got the word right twice in-a-row I would move it up a level (skipping 4)

After about 3 months this was too slow for me, and I began simply listening and reading at the same time. Because this was much faster I did not have time to worry about the precision of my LingQs. The first community definition would be picked and I would need to move on as every page would have at least 5 brand new words. I would try to figure out what a blue word was before simply getting the translation, but most of the time I just did not have enough time to try and parse the word (or was too mentally lazy). I dropped my Known Word goals and this time and increased my daily reading and exposure time to 3,5 hours per day. Usually 2,5 - 3 hours reading + listening. The remaining time with something else.

After another 3 months I moved to using LingQ monolingually. I switched the in-app dictionary to the same as the TL. Not many use LingQ this way so community definitions rarely exist. If I saw a word 3 times, or knew it was blocking my comprehension then I would look it up in a monolingual dictionary. If I did not understand the monolingual definition, then I would translate the whole sentence (or just ignore it and move on). My reading + listening time was 3 hours.

Most recently, I read way more paper books now, but with spring coming I will start walking/running outdoors. As I am familiar with the LingQ interface I will keep using it on my walks, but I will disable highlighting altogether. If I need to check a word so be-it. And before reading I plan to take a few minutes to ignore names and update the status of words as appropriate.

During this entire time I had conversations on italki, about 1 - 2 hours per language per week.

Did it work? I would say yes? After 500~ days I went from A0 in Swedish and Norwegian to being a paid Swedish instructor and last Sunday someone from Trondheim said “Din norsk er bedre enn min!” (I do not think that is true, but I will take the complement.) My German went from A2~ to comfortable speaking and writing. I actually have an conversation/interview regarding a PhD program in a few weeks and that entire conversation will be in German.

I would also say I view this as a lifelong journey where there is no “goal”. I have no intention of slowing down anytime soon.

22

Quick question for people like you who primarily read + listen, rather than doing them separately:

Has your listening comprehension improved satisfactorily with this method? I’ve always separated my reading and listening (for the most part anyways; I would say ~20% is reading/listening at the same time, while ~80% is doing those separately). I’ve always thought that doing both at the same time would make it difficult to progress with listening comprehension since it takes less effort to determine what’s being said.

23

“It’s interesting that you suggest doing something else before lingQ”
I´ve been preaching this for years (beyond LingQ): Depending on the distance of the L2 we want to acquire and the L1 / L2 we already know, we might need a mix of “warm up” approaches before we´re able to use audio reader software like LingQ, ReadLang, etc. effectively. For example:

  • The XY most frequent words (this is where Memrise shines in many different languages, for example).
  • Verb conjugation drills (again: Memrise)
  • Writing system drills (again: Memrise - for example, Hiragana and Katakana decks in Japanese; Skritter for learning to write in Japanese and Chinese, etc.).
  • Approaches like Michel Thomas that start with basic syntax patterns and play with them / make them more complicated.
  • Assimil because it´s in a certain way LingQ s predecessor on paper and with audio. However, if I´m able to mimic it with LingQ, I´d discard it.
  • Phrasebooks with audio (such as Lonely Planet) that also contain a very short intro to the grammar of the L2 (not to memorize any grammar rules, but just to get a feel for the essential grammar parts of the L2)
  • Good grammar guides to be able to look up specific section when the need arises. In Japanese the go-to grammar is often Tae Kim.
  • Pimsleur for focusing on the oral dimension for a while.
  • Specialized websites such as JapanesePod101 (not everything is convincing here, but what I like for example - apart from Risa, the teacher :slight_smile: - is their section about some basic syntax patterns because it complements nicely the Michel Thomas approach).
    etc.

Note:
It´s important to choose wisely here and not to use too many resources at the same time.
From my own experience, I´d say the limit is 3 resources used simultaneously. Otherwise, it becomes too overwhelming, esp. for inexperienced language learners.
In short: Less is definitely more in this context!

time consuming
Timeboxing (i.e. Pomodoro and Co) is the answer here. That is:

  • Choose one Pomodoro block à 25 min [or less: let´s say 20 min, but of course not 20 seconds :-)] a day - and you´re done for the day.
  • Rinse and repeat.
24

“reviewing plays a critical role in learning.”
Sure. And that´s why high volume reading while listening at an elevated speed (what I call the “ultrareading” approach) works as a “natural SRS”. Even reading alone at slower speed has this effect - provided the learner reads regularly and enough.

“I don’t have much time to spend reading every day.”
If you use ultrareading while listening (let´s say from an A2 level upwards) and combine it with timeboxing (let´s say a Pomodoro block of 15, 20, 25 min a day), you´ll be fine in the long run.

It´s not only effective (see the comment by @noxialisrex above), but also highly time-efficient:

  • it´s intense, focused and short
  • it´s a natural SRS (see above)
  • it allows you to digest a lot (!) of words if practiced regularly

However, it should be an established (daily) habit. That is, reading every once in a while isn´t good enough. But that’s true of any skill acquisition exercise…

If you´re interested in some details reg. ultrareading while listening (including a kind of “blueprint”), timeboxing, and habit-based learning (embracing “discomfort”), then you find all the necessary info in this concurrent thread:
https://www.lingq.com/de/community/forum/open-forum/feeling-demotivated?post_id=308667#notifications

The only thing left is to find the right material in Russian (preferably with audio) for your language level.

  • If it’s not available on LingQ, you could search the internet for podcasts for advanced beginners / low intermediates.
  • You could also check the stories by Oly Richards, provided there are any in Russian.

One last tip:
At your language level, it´s better to focus on non-fiction first and switch to fiction later. Non-fiction is simply easier to digest, esp. if you
already know the text.

Example:
If you already know Yuval Noah Harari´s trilogy (“Sapiens”, “Homo Deus”, and “21 lessons”) in Hebrew or English, you should be able to use some of those books at your language level in Russian:

  • There should be Russian editions so you can import the e-books (without DRM) into LingQ.
  • There should be audiobook versions in Russian so that you can listen to the texts while reading them.
  • The language is relatively simple and therefore easy to digest, but of course, since we’re talking about Russian here, “easy” is not as easy as it sounds :slight_smile:
    If you´re able to read “Sapiens” and “Homo Deus” (those are the best books of the trilogy) completely then all your language stats on LingQ will explode (esp. when following the ultrareading-while-listening approach mentioned above).

Good luck on your journey
Peter

25

“it doesn’t actually matter what you do”
In the realm of “skill acquisition” (sports, chess, programming, playing an instrument, language learning, math, etc.) this statement contradicts the findings of performance psychology of the last decades (see, for example, the works by K. Anders Ericsson on “deliberate practice”).
In short:

  • Frequency is important
  • Quantity is important
  • Quality is important
  • Focus is important
  • Evaluation is important
  • Feedback is important

In other words:
It actually does matter what you do, how you do it, how often you do it, etc.

Or from my own experience in competitive sports:
If you don’t care what you do, expect to be humiliated in a game - and I might add: more than once and for a long time :slight_smile:

26

Listening + Reading has helped my listening comprehension better than listening alone, but I do both of these depending on how much time I have. One advantage to L+R is that you can let your reading lag behind the audio so that you hear the words before you see them. This method is a nice crutch that you can use and turn off instantly depending on comprehension level. Also, L+R provides a nice gauge of where your listening comprehension level is at. If you can’t L+R well then listening alone will be an issue. So L+R should be easy before only L.

27

LOL you have to win every time.
My position is that IF you do some of it every day then it does not matter as long as you are consistent.

Obviously 5 minutes a day will lead to it taking years as opposed to months and obviously duolingo will be less efficient than other methods etc etc etc

BUT if you keep doing it every day till you’re complete AND you don’t care if it takes years THEN it doesn’t really matter.
That’s not the same as saying that all methods are equally efficient as others.

Clear now?

28

I have a couple of questions. :slight_smile:

  1. What do you mean removing highlighting altogether? I’ve never used those settings. But you can also listen to anything without using Lingq’s app. If you are walking/running, like I will start to do as well soon, you don’t watch your phone at all. I don’t. I walk for 4 hours sometimes and I listen to until the AirPods Pro can.

  2. I’ve been starting listening+reading like you people now, for a couple of pomodoros per day. The rest is for reading. I still have a hard time to stay focus and that’s on my mind. But is it ok to keep listening+reading even if you don’t understand most of it? I don’t want to always slow down the listening, I try to do a mix.
    I’ve also noticed that I can’t focus on yellow words either by doing that. But I can understand chunks for sentences here and there. Sometimes I understand a paragraph or the general meaning and so on.

Thanks.

29

My problem with Anki was not psychology but the fact that it wasn’t effective for me. Probably because I was doing it wrong and it’s not my thing anymore because LingQ does it way better.

The fact is that I’ve noticed that I was reviewing without paying too much attention to it but just for the sake of reviewing.

At the end, even if I was consistent and even if I had a very high score, I didn’t progress at all. I wasted a lot of time with Anki and similar products “studying” German. My real progress came using LingQ because it’s different. And we do a lot of SRS by natural exposure anyway. (Actually the real progress started using LingQ like I’m doing it now, because before it was routine without much effort and I was using it in the same way I was using Anki. I didn’t understand how to use LingQ).

Probably, if you are reviewing Anki paying more attention to what you’re doing, or using close captions or other strategies, it could work better.

But I’ve also found that I was struggling with my mind doing those repetitions. They were not effective and it was more mental effort than real result. So the benefits weren’t good for me and I dropped it dedicating more time to LingQ.

And now I’ve been learning to make it more and more effective each month.

30

You’re right. That is true.

I’ve wondered why some people have said “anki didn’t work for me” when it worked awesome for me.

But yeah that is exactly what it is. If you just autopilot it and don’t focus on trying to remember and correctly drill the flashcard then you’re just experiencing pain with no gain. That’s 100% true.

31

I really like Peter’s posts and can say I pretty much agree with everything he says. I think an important point to highlight is that his opinions are aimed toward:

“the most effective method which does not take into account enjoyment (or chances of stickling with the method)”

I have nothing wrong with defining a method this way, but human beings are human beings and not robots or computer programs. If the “effectiveness” score does not take into account the chances of someone quitting from boredom (or overly structured learning) then it’s missing a very important piece of the puzzle. I’d even say that the odds of someone sticking with their studies, regardless of which method is used, is the single most important thing. All roads lead to Rome.

32

Yeah. I agree with everything he says except the specific tools. But in general yeah.

And you’re right. If you quit because you’re bored (even if the method is the most “efficient” for getting to the end goal), then you still failed.

For that reason I sometimes waste my time on duolingo or some other “easy and fun” stuff.

And 100%: keep on doing it for a long period is the underlying thread for all methods.

33

My listening comprehension alone has gotten very high. It is not yet effortless like when hearing English with unclear audio I will understand it even when not paying attention, but remove any small barrier and I will understand without issue.

I could not tell you exactly what parts my this method were most important to boosting my listening comprehension.

One thing I do notice is I do not sub-vocalize at all when reading and listening. I also have times where I read faster than the spoken word, and times where the spoken word is faster – this seems to force me to be faster in both areas. I am also not easily distracted by my phone or whatever when reading and listening. If my attention in one area dwindles for a moment the other is keeping me engaged.

34

I know that stopping to sub-vocalize is a powerful strategy for reading faster, but do you think that it’s also a good strategy for acquiring a foreign language?

35

1a) In the reader settings there is a Highlighting mode option to turn it off. This means no words are highlighted, new, known, unknown, LingQs, none. At this point LingQ becomes almost a normal e-reader that just happens to have a connected dictionary of my supplied definitions.

1b) When I run I am just listening to something (usually a 5K+ per day). When I am walking it depends on what I want to do, but much of the time it is listening to something + reading on my phone. Last year I averaged a 2 hour walk a day + a half hour run, we will see how I adjust this year. But that entire time last year was time spent in an L2.

  1. Yes, as weird as it may seem, not understanding everything while reading and listening is actually okay. If I missed something really key, I might go back a chapter or two. A few crime novels that I read, I needed to re-read the last quarter because I didn’t understand who the killer actually was. Also keep in mind, things can be poorly written or confusing to native speakers as well.

For this reason I would recommend reading things that are very linear at first. Changes or perspective, PoV character changes, time jumps, etc. can make it hard to get into the flow when reading. But if you do not understand a whole paragraph or chapter? Oh well, just try and pick out words you do understand and “start fresh” the next chapter.

For this reason I really like Sherlock Holmes translations into German. They have a familiar pattern in how they are written, are anywhere between 40 - 70 minutes, and easy to read again later if you want to try and understand it better.

Finally, do not discount that something may simply be too difficult to read for a time. Set it aside, read something else, and come back later. You wouldn’t recommend Infinite Jest to someone with a B1 level in English the same way you wouldn’t recommend Kant, Nietzsche or Kafka.

36

I am not a researcher so take me with a grain of salt, but I would much prefer a literal native speaker vocalization replacing my “incorrect” sub-vocalization, at least during the intermediate stages.

At some point I think we need to develop the muscle to imagine what a word sounds like, but would rather rely on reading + listening before that muscle is ready.

37

Thanks for your reply, very useful information as always.

I think you have a high level of mental focus capability. Which is something I’m working on to improve basically on a daily basis.

Not sure about walking + reading at the same time. I use to listen to a language as well when walking (I don’t run but I walk fast to keep a regular cardio activity). But I usually listen to a language that I’m more comfortable and I’m more advanced.

Although, probably due to the fact that my concentration level is not so high, I have to say that I listen to audiobooks to learn or understand something from the topic and not the language itself.

From years of listening audiobooks in this way, mostly in English, something in French and Spanish, I don’t think my language comprehension has improved at all. Just by listening only. Probably I haven’t lost anything, which is good, but not really improved either. I’ve never had this feeling.

Ultrareading is another story and I know it helps me to improve the language. And also reading afterwards the text of what I was listening. This is because I can catch and see all the words I didn’t get when I was listening. But if the language is too hard, that would become too much trouble.

Now, reading by walking, not sure it’s so comfortable. My focus goes on walking too, also exercising or working on my posture, my mind and movement. I wouldn’t be comfortable to keep my phone in front of me either. You will definitely be amongst the firsts to run with a virtual visor as soon as it will allow you to read. :smiley:

38

Hi, ARonald / xxdb!

that his opinions are aimed toward:
“the most effective method which does not take into account enjoyment (or chances of stickling with the method)”
Well, it´s much more complicated than that because that would mean that there is a “single” (optimal) way - which is not the case.

In order to make clear what my (learning and teaching) position is, I´ll distinguish three dimensions in this context:

Dimension 1 - Sound learning principles
An excellent example here is learning based on fluctuating states of mind (motivation, emotions, mood, will power, etc.) vs. habit-based learning.

Learning that is based on fluctuating states of mind creates permanently the following problems:

  • on-and-off-learning
  • giving up easily, i.e. not being able to achieve long-term goals
  • low frustration / discomfort tolerance
    etc.

Established habits, on the other hand, avoid/solve these problems. And if the habit of getting comfortable with the uncomfortable is also cultivated (daily), then this strengthens the learner’s frustration / discomfort tolerance even further. In short: (S)he becomes more “resilient.”

So if learners want to “survive” academic studies at the university, esp. in the STEM disciplines, habits are the way to go because they increase their chances of success immensely.

And what is true for STEM is also true for other areas such as Second Language Acquisition:
Habits >> fluctuating states of mind

*** Note: Relationship of habits and fun ***
There´s no contradiction between habits and fun.
On the contrary, the more established the learner´s habits are, the easier the whole skill acquisition process becomes because the learner can more and more start playing “at will”. And “free play” usually means “flow = fun”.

On the other hand, learners who insist on “fun - first / only / always” without establishing good habits simply follow a learning style based on fluctuating states of mind (here: pleasure).

Such learners never (?) survive STEM studies at a university - and with that mindset they shouldn´t be there in the first place!
Usually math eliminates them after a more or less short period of time…

*** Note: Relationship between habits and boredom ***
“someone quitting from boredom” (ARonald)

Also no problem!
Habit-based learning doesn´t mean that
learners shouldn´t strive for interesting or even compelling content.
On the contrary, they should always try to find such content or make the learning experience interesting because that enhances the automaticity of the habit processes even further.

However, if there´s no such content then habits will save day!

to be continued

39

@aronald / xxdb

Dimension 2 - There´s no (optimal) method / strategy to rule them all

A fundamental experience shared by the humanities, social, natural, and technical sciences is that there´s no single or optimal approach that can cover all the complexity of a domain (or of all domains).

You have always several (more or less conflicting) approaches with their pros and cons. And depending on the specific constraints, these approaches may work well in some contexts but not in others.

That´s also the case in Second Language Acquisition in general and with Ultrareading-while-listening in particular:

  • The latter approach doesn´t work (well) at the beginning stages A1/A2 because high-volume reading / listening isn´t really possible here, esp. if the L2 to be acquired is very distant from the learner´s L1 / L2s.
  • Ultrareading-while-listening also suffers from the law of diminishing returns at advanced levels. That is, the more advanced learners are (C1 and above), the more they have to read to find interesting collocations. At these levels, it´s better to switch to a different approach, or at least a mix of approaches.
  • It works extremely well for intermediate learners. However, in my experience, it´s even more effective when supplemented with self-talk, chats, reading diaries, written summaries, etc.

In short:
There is no one (optimal) language learning approach that works for every person, for every L2, at every language level, in every conceivable context and under every possible constraint.

There´s only a mix of good approaches / strategies. (“good” here means being both effective and highly efficient, see “Dimension 3”.). And this mix must be tailored to the learner’s goals, needs, and constraints.

That´s what language professors / coaches usually try to do.

to be continued

40

@Peter: I agree but it’s not enough.

Unfortunately writing here in this tiny window is not suitable anymore for reading a long post.

Habits is not enough. The problem comes before. Habits is an effective tool but what’s pushing a human being to unlock that will to create an habit.

If we want to shape a human being into a better learner, we shouldn’t focus on the tools only but on how we make them/us to take those tools systematically until reaching the highest performance.

I don’t want to make it to long. But usually comes from crisis, difficult situations, no choices, big mistakes, or other predispositions. This would be a better master key knowledge to use for ourselves and to distribute to everyone.