School shooting

Open Forum
61

ad dooo: (…) By the way, you make no attempt to seriously engage the topic of gun control by providing evidence to counter unravelingminds arguments or to even address my main point. Did you bother to even figure out what my main point is? (…)

unravelingminds seems to have taken my arguments seriously and he posted a long and interesting answer. He found my post where I address some of the issues he raised worthy of a detailed answer, while you seem to think I did not even try to “seriously engage the topic”.

When I read posts and decide to comment on them, I always “bother” to figure out what the original poster might have tried to say. My answers may not be to everybody’s liking and I may certainly be wrong in my judgment and/or assessment quite a few times, but at least I try to refrain from personal attacks. And, yes, I have read all your posts (by the way I also agreed with you on a few other occasions on this site, so it is not that I “automatically” disagree with you) but I simply found the one post I referred to very rude. That’s all.

I don’t think that addressing someone as “dumb-ass” will further any kind of reasonable discussion. Calling somebody else’s statement “utter nonsense”, while not being the most constructive input either, certainly is still quite different from calling someone “dumb-ass”. I don’t really want to go any further into this. The two of you seem to have some personal conflict which unfortunately more often than not is reflected in this forum.

But who says I have to like what you or anybody else writes. I will try to refrain from similar reactions to your posts in future. This way we both will be a lot happier.

Last but not least, I’m sorry if my contributions to this or other threads do not meet your high linguistic or intellectual standards (see your remark about me being a polyglot and yet not understanding what you try to say).

62

ad Friedemann: (…) yes, I was referring to the obesity epidemic. You are right in that obesity is a complex issue but the way we produce and market food is a big component to it. Measures I think would make sense include: (…)

While I agree with the essence of what you say, I’m not sure if “banning” things is always the best solution. Whenever I am in the US I’m astonished at the mere amount of fruits and vegetables you can buy there, either in their supermarkets or at small local grocery stores. They have a much bigger variety on offer than we have in most European countries. And I’ve checked the prices myself - all that fast food generally is a lot more expensive than some healthy fruits and vegetables. I would agree with you if the consumers were not given a choice, but they are.

While there should never be any products available that by themselves are harmful, I don’t think the solution is to ban everything. I mean, after all, a hamburger and a coke won’t kill you unless you make them the only components of your diet.

Yes, the super-sized meals are a problem, but there are many other things that are unhealthy. Sitting in front of a computer 8 hours a day certainly is not healthy either. You can’t really introduce a ban on this kind of work though, can you. It is better to make sure people understand how important it is to get up from time to time, to do physical exercises, to change their positions while sitting etc.

I do agree with you though when it comes to the ingredients of a lot of industrially processed food. It is unbelievable what is still permissible, also in the EU by the way. We Europeans are no better in this respect. Just think of all the terrible plastic wrapping that is now used for sausages, cheese, fruits and vegetables (in the past they were either wrapped in paper or taken home in a basket). I just recently translated a text about the migration of harmful substances from all this wrapping into the foodstuff we then eat. These things are frightening and this is where the lawmakers have to act. But I don’t believe in telling people how many glasses of coke or how many hamburgers they are allowed to it.

As much as I favour certain regulatory measures, people need to make use of their brain too and there is enough information out there nowadays to make an informed decision.

I agree with you a 100 % when it comes to aggressive marketing for obviously unhealthy food at schools etc. It is also counter-productive for school canteens to offer mostly fast food and snacks with an extremely high content of sugar instead of offering a variety of vegetabels and fruits.

At the end of the day, I would not want them to ban chocolate though :wink: I’d rather they let me have one from time to time while still making sure fruits and vegetables and other products contain the least amount of contaminants possible.

63

Robert,

the thing with fast food and soft drinks is that there are indications that especially the sugar can have a very addictive effect on us. People know that cigarettes are bad but an addiction is very hard to break. So knowing that fast food isn’t good for us isn’t enough, our emotional side wins in almost all cases. Sugar and fast food seem to mess with our hormonal response to food causing us to store more calories and be more hungry than we would be with healthier food.

Modern days processed food is just designed to get us hooked and given the scale and the rapid increase of obesity rates all over the world it seems just unlikely that we all have suddenly become mentally weak and gluttonous. Watch the Youtube video the Bitter Truth by Dr. Lustig. I am not a nutritionist but a lot of what he says makes a lot of sense to me.

If sugar indeed creates a similar physiological response as nicotin or alcohol I think regulating it should at least be discussed. You are right that there is a large variety of fruits and vegetables on the shelves in the US but I find these products always rather expensive compared with grain based foods or meat, at least that is the case in Europe I find.

One big issue I have is with the large amount of meat products we consume in the west. Meat has a huge ecological footprint and consumes vast amounts of land, water and energy to produce.

64

PS to Robert:

“Calling somebody else’s statement “utter nonsense”, while not being the most constructive input either…”

Dooo stated that the call for banning guns is in his eyes as reasonable as calls for banning schools and short skirts because they may invite these horrible acts of violence. This too me this is utter nonsense, in fact it is more than that, it is utterly offensive and cynical given what has happened, I think, and I stand by what I said.

65

@ lovelanguages,

I appreciate your response and would agree with pretty much everything you’re saying.

When I said I had never seen an American shout “we’re number 1,” I meant in the stereotypical way that many seem to think Americans do it: by obnoxiously getting in someone’s face (e.g., a visitor from another country) and hectoring them about the superiority of the United States. This is a talking point that, sadly, many Europeans trot out when the discussion turns to the U.S. From here it’s only a short walk to similar stupidities, such as how we’re all ignorant and uncultured, despite somehow being able to control world affairs. (I, of course, don’t include you in this group.) The biggest ignorance exists concerning those who live in the Southern United States, who are regarded as one step above mollusk in the evolutionary chain by many non-Americans and even by many Americans. The South is perhaps the most pleasant place to visit in the United States. No, people will not mow you down with a gatling gun from a pickup truck, nor will they cover you with a Confederate flag and sing Sweet Home Alabama. Instead, they’ll invite you for a beer and ask you about where you’re from.

So once again, I appreciate your response; and I loved Austria when I visited and wouldn’t mind living there. Yes, Barack Obama and others often say the U.S. is the best country in the world. However, this, as you pointed out, is kind of like saying that your mother or father is the best mother or father in the world; you believe it on an emotional and sentimental level, but you don’t go up to other people and disparage their mothers and fathers. Those Americans who do that are usually regarded as extremely rude.

66

I don’t know much about the root causes of obesity. All I’ll say is that, here in the States, healthy foods have become extremely popular, and hopefully this trend will have a noticeable effect. Everyone I meet nowadays seems to want to ear more healthy, and everyone is talking about health food stores and books and articles they read on nutrition. The market is responding to this demand with tons of new health food stores and choices.

67

@Friedemann

I would agree that calling for the banning of schools and short skirts is a glib response to the problem. The issues are in no way analogous.

That said, whenever gun control and other policies come up, I always like to remind people that the United States is not Europe. I mean this in a purely literal way: we are, culturally and demographically, vastly different. We have well over 300 million people in this country, with tons of immigrants and people of different races, ethnicities, religions, cultures, and values. Other countries tend to be much smaller and, relatively speaking, much more culturally and ethnically homogenous than we are. Because of this, and doubtless other factors, policies work differently in different countries. Gun control appears to work in Europe. If the statistics are correct, gun homicides and violent crime are very low. So the logical response would be simply to export those policies to the US, right?

Well, this is where it gets tricky. Contrary to popular perception, the US actually has some pretty tough gun laws, and they vary from state to state and even city to city. There are areas of the US where tighter gun laws have helped. There are also areas where tighter gun laws (e.g. Chicago, where guns are practically banned) have done absolutely nothing, and in many cases the level of gun violence has gone up. (And, in those cases, now you have a frightened and disarmed law-abiding public at the mercy of criminals.) There are also many rural areas where, for cultural reasons, guns are voluminous but are respected and not used to murder people en masse. So what works? I don’t know, but at least for the US, we are too large and diverse a nation to get away with a one-size-fits-all policy. It would appear that culture has a lot to do with it. And we have many, many of those here in the States. It’s like trying to duplicate a chemistry experiment but not being able to achieve the same results, all the while you haven’t realized you’re using a mixture of clean and dirty test tubes.

68

I guess the conclusion to draw is that, as of right now, the US is a totally broken society. I wouldn’t even use the word society or nation.

69

I thnink that banning beer and sausages in Germany would go a long way to reducung the number of overweight Germans and inrease life expectancy. Why not try that one on friedemann.

70

I am posting here some excerpts from the Wikipedia entry on Obesity in Germany. There is no doubt that the US leads the world in obesity. Whenever I go down there I am amazed at the quantity of food that many people eat, and the size of the people. However, obesity is increasing everywhere. What is more, essentially the same foods are available in all countries. It is up to the prevailing food culture as to what people consume. To blame obesity on the control that the food industry has over politicians is to miss the point. These are life-style issues.

So let’s get back to the main issue here. Many people behave in ways that are destructive, to themselves and to others. Overwhelmingly in OECD countries we live better than before, but there are problems. We all have somewhat imperfect political systems, and other forms of social and political activity that seek to come to terms with these issues while protecting different interest groups. Usually beneath high sounding pronouncements we find the instinct to preserve one’s own interests or promote one’s own personal hobby horse and grind one’s own axe. This, and not some almighty dictator doing what is “good for us” is how modern and largely effective societies solve these problems. There is no alternative, other than even more destructive utopian dictatorships.

Obesity in Germany

Causes

[edit]Food and drinks
A high consumption of beer and food, fatty foods and a lack of physical activity are to be blamed for obesity in Germany.[6][9][16]
Another issue is the lack of Mediterranean lifestyle and diet.[9] Children food product don’t contribute to a healthy diet.[17]
Die Welt reported that a “balanced diet is practically impossible.”[17] The profit margin for fruits and vegetables was below five percent while confectionery, soft drinks and snacks was at 15% or more.[17]
[edit]Genes
Genes partly play a role in obesity.[18] Scientists at the German Institute of Human Nutrition and the University Hospital of Leipzig stated that identified two genes that promote fat accumulation in the abdominal cavity.[19] The increased activity of the genes also promotes the release of an enzyme that is responsible for the formation of cortisol.[19] A permanent increase in cortisol levels contribute to obesity.[19]
[edit]Marriage
Marriage has played a factor.[8] Sixty-nine percent of married men are considered overweight while only 43% of single men are considered overweight.[8] Fifty-eight percent of widowed women are consider overweight and 46% of married women are consider overweight while only 25% of single women are considered overweight.[8] For children, lifestyle choices such as exercise and enough sleep plays a role in weight.[12]
[edit]Effects

[edit]Employment problems
A study by the German Sport University Cologne revealed that some industries in Germany have a shortage of qualified trainees due to Germany’s obesity epidemic.[20] The industries affected are security and emergency services and skilled manual work sectors.[20]
[edit]Clothing industry
A clothing-related study revealed that many clothing companies plan to adjust their sizing partly due to Germany’s obesity epidemic.[10]
[edit]

71

lovelanguages, ok I will repackage “dumbass” in temporal terms, even though in reality the actions are iterative to the point of becoming an identity…hate the sin, not the sinner, as the saying goes

Making repeated dismissive, unsupported, sweeping generalisations about someone’s serious remarks, not just now, but in earlier threads, are the actions of an ass. (is “asinine” the adjectival?)

Qualifying them post hoc with non sequiturs like, repeatedly now and in the past: “gee how could you possibly be a teacher? (since of course I know EXACTLY the character of a good teacher)”, and now: “I hope the victims’ families do not read it (since of course I know EXACTLY the character of these victims’ families)” are dumb remarks.

This is not to even to mention the bald faced dumb remarks linking US foreign policy to the shooting by way of domestic gun policy, or the obvious assertion that this shooting was done with a gun, therefore the dumb conclusion that gun control is only thing worth talking about. That by the way was my main point.

Have you found the evidence of my “character trait” yet?

72

Steve is right on about corporations. As Steve said, the evidence simply doesn’t support the notion that corporations make our life worse overall. Corporations have the capacity to commit inhumane and immoral acts because humans have that capacity and corporations are made of humans, but our standard of living is much higher now because of corporations and this is undeniable.

The best course of action in regards to obesity and health problems related to diet is to educate the public about healthy food choices and allow them to make their own choices. I disagree that we should punish food companies for advertising their products. Banning foods and telling people how much they can or can’t eat or drink is ridiculous to me. Authoritarianism at its finest. I suppose that Friedemann supports Bloomberg’s ban on big soft drinks. I don’t drink soda and I don’t live in New York, so it doesn’t affect me personally, but I consider this type of government intrusion into our personal lives to be immoral and illegal. Some people will choose to eat unhealthy foods even when they know it is hurting them. That is their choice and we have no right to infringe on their personal choices.

Some human beings in this world feel the uncontrollable need to dominate and control others. I don’t believe that we have the moral right to impose our will on other free humans exercising their freedom of choice, when that choice affects nobody but themselves. Authoritarians who want to control every detail in our lives are the biggest enemies of a free society and we should always oppose them.

I do think that the US in general and its citizenry are the target of a lot of unfair hatred and bigotry based on malformed opinions and ideals about us. I think our foreign policy and policing of the world has a lot to do with these sentiments as well, as some people loathe US involvement in world affairs.

I’d also like to remind everyone here who supports gun control in the wake of this event that Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people (including 19 children in the day care center inside the Murrah building) and wounded 600 more, and he didn’t need a gun to do it. He used fertilizer. All the gun control laws in the world wouldn’t have stopped him, because he didn’t use guns. Do you think a ban on fertilizer would have helped? Should our efforts be focused on spotting at risk individuals before their meltdown, or on banning any and everything these criminals could ever potentially use in their crimes?

I don’t want to hear people who know nothing about firearms telling me that I should give up my semi-automatics because there are other “just as good” guns. There are not. Every gun is like a tool in the toolbox; they serve distinct purposes, each and every one of them. People who don’t own guns don’t understand this. I find it rather ridiculous to hear someone who has never shot a rifle in their life (that I can tell) telling me that a semi-auto is the same as a bolt-action, serves the same purpose, and is adequately suitable in all the same circumstances. The argument is fallacious and demonstrates a total lack of firearm knowledge.

73

I must say I cringe when I hear US politicians say the US is the greatest country in the world, or God Bless America. But I forgive them.

74

I believe a proper apology is owed to those who were offended to or annoyed by my previous ‘outburst’ comment which was not properly constructed. It was severely misleading and did not deliver the intended message. A personal apology was appropriately delivered to rwargas22. I shall not attempt to discuss the cause nor the proper reconstruction of intended message publicily, but fortunately one of lovelanguagesll’s previous comments summed it up properly.

I do would like to, however, express that judging one’s linguistic proficiency where people of all ethic backgrounds, cultures and language levels are welcomed to exchange thoughts was not what I expected to see on a language learning web site such as LingQ. I’d hope that the one who made such comment earlier would please consider this with an open mind. However, that does not mean even someone with flawless linguistic capabilities is exempt from making what appeared like a ruthless remark about a foreign nation, hence this post.

That is all, have a nice day.

75

@mjds

Thank you for your kind gesture. I now know what you had intended.

76

@steve

I don’t cringe when I hear Stephen Harper say he thinks Canada is the greatest country in the world (I recall reading this in the National Post as well). Nor do I cringe when I hear O Canada, or Deutschlandlied, both of which contain some pretty lofty opinions of their countries (both justified, in my opinion).

77

Ah but we have the feedom to cringe for our own reasons. I do cringe when Harper or any politician says Canada is rhe greatest country in the world. I think it is a stupid thing to say. The same with asking God to save, bless or keep a country. God , if such a being exists, is not, in my view, involved in blessing or saving countries anywhere. So I cringe.

78

@steve

true. it’s largely irrational, but we all have irrational beliefs and practices that we uphold every day. some are worse than others though, such as believing you can become fluent in a language in 3…whoops, I shouldn’t say.

79

I posted something very similar to this effect in another thread, but it has a great deal of relevance here as well.

To truly get an accurate picture of gun crime rates in the United States of America, you need to look at the local level, rather than lumping everybody into one big pot.

The largest concentration of guns per owner is in rural America, where the least amount of gun crime happens. This data runs contrary to the “more guns == more crime” theory. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/rcrp.pdf

This information is put out by the National Criminal Justice Reference Service, US Justice Department.

The “Availability of guns” section addresses exactly what we are talking about here:

“It has been observed that gun ownership is much more prevalent in rural areas where more than double the number of residents owned guns than their urban counterparts. While many of the rural gun owners are hunters who use rifles or shotguns, the percentage of citizens owning handguns has also been higher in rural areas than in central cities (23 percent versus 15 percent). It is sometimes assumed that the availability of guns is relevant to gun-related violence, but the case of rural areas shows that the relationship is far more complex. While rural residents are more likely to own guns, it appears they are less likely to use guns in the commission of crimes. It has also been found that crime was lowest in counties with the highest rates of legal firearm ownership.”

Some other excerpts from the source:

“Index offense rates, including homicide, are higher for urban areas than for rural areas.”

“The gap between rural and urban crime is greater for violent crime than for property crime.”

“High rates of poverty have long been associated with high rates of crime. Crime has been less frequent in rural areas, although poverty has been a common problem in rural America.”

“Rural law enforcement officers, more than their urban counterparts, often work with lower budgets, less staff, less equipment, and fewer written policies to govern their operations. Despite these problems, rural police appear to be more efficient than urban police and more respected by the public.”

80

I’ve read the majority of the posts about this topic, and although I think its somewhat of an inappropriate place for this discussion, some things need to be pointed out.

1 - Seeings as the vast, vast majority of people who are victims (and I use that term loosely, seeings as most people shot in the US kind of brought in on themselves, obviously not this situation however) of gun violence in the US are US residents, its kind of a domestic discussion that non-Americans should venture into very cautiously. Like the use of coca in Bolivia and other South American countries isn’t something I have the ability to judge because it is a complicated cultural issue I am not qualified to judge, I think those who aren’t American should be very careful in this discussion, because there are reasons we Americans “cling” to our guns, and it isn’t that we are all fearful or paranoid. It would take thousands of words to explain why we care so much about personal possession of firearms, but what is necessary to understand is that for many Americans it is an emotional issue because it is so deep in our culture, for a lot of very good reasons. Not saying our current gun laws are perfect, but they exist as they do for far more extensive reasons than the NRA somehow bribing politicians. I own two guns, have never hurt another human being with them and don’t intend nor expect to. However, if suddenly my guns were illegal, I would be very upset about it.

2- If people from outside the US want to judge us for our “unhealthy” love for guns, I’d advise these people check if there are any major gun manufacturers in their countries that export to the US. I am specifically referring to Austrians, seeing as I own a pistol made by Glock, a huge Austrian company (an excellent firearm btw, and the knife I own made by Glock is one of the best camping tools I have ever owned). I’m not saying there is anything immoral about producing these guns, in fact Glock specifically is my favorite manufacturer of a variety of products I enjoy, I’m simply saying you may live in a country that economically benefits from our love affair with firearms.

3- The constant use of the term “assault weapons” is idiotic, considering the .22LR i own is technically an assault rifle, but it would be difficult to kill 20 squirrels with it in the time one of these school shootings lasts. But, according to the people who want to ban assault rifles, this gun of mine is supposedly a military weapon. Trust me, they dont use this gun in a military setting and never, ever would. With that said, even the AR-15’s that are on the market use different rounds than those used by the M-16, and are in most ways completely different weapons (as it has already been pointed out that they dont have fully automatic and 3 shot burst capabilities like the military versions do).

4 - All useful pistols and rifles, aside from bolt action rifles and some single action handguns, are semiautomatic. The idea of not allowing these guns is laugable because they are the vast, vast majority of guns used in almost all contexts, civilian and military. Even hunting can be made easier with semiautomatics (if they are allowed, some states dont allow or limit them for hunting), because if you miss that first shot you have another chance. Whether this is really fair in hunting for sport is arguable, but people who hunt for sustenance as is common in some rural areas may prefer a semi-auto because it improves the likelihood they eat that night.

5 - While we do have some of the loosest gun laws in the world, check murder rates worldwide and the difference shrinks drastically or disappears. Doing away with the tools doesn’t mean murder doesn’t happen; see the UK’s current problem with knife violence. Again, obviously shooting someone with a gun is easier than stabbing them with a knife, but to act like the problem is mainly the possession of guns is shortsighted and naiive.

6 - Most gun crime committed in the US is by people who aren’t allowed to possess them in the first place. The shooter’s mother in this case broke the law (probably, I dont know all about Connecticut’s laws) by allowing her son access to them, as his mental disability (or whatever you want to call aspergars) should have made her reasonably foresee this could have occurred, not because Aspie’s (the american term for them, which isn’t derogatory btw) are inherently violent but rather that they can be more unpredictable than “normal” people. There are so many more laws (like the gang problem we have here with criminals having guns that are fully automatic, which are so difficult and expensive to legally acquire here its laughable) that are broken regarding guns that the answer isn’t more laws, it is to ENFORCE THE LAWS WE HAVE.

7 - It isn’t a clip, it is a magazine. Although clip is colloquially used in the US, it is incorrect. As language learners I’m sure you can appreciate how this distinction is important (I wont go into a deep discussion of what a “clip” actually is, suffice it to say that you likely will never see one no matter how many gun stores you go into).

To close, just be cautious regarding this discussion and remember, as there are many things Americans dont understand about other cultures and as Americans are often disliked for this arrogant ignorance, dont be surprised if many Americans dont appreciate “foreigners” passing judgments on beliefs that, for many Americans, are taken very seriously. Sometimes you just have to accept there are cultural aspects that are difficult to understand for outsiders, that doesn’t make them wrong or weird just because you may not be familiar with them. Again, no offense to anybody, but as a proud gun-owning language learning American, just felt it necessary to put in my $0.02. If i repeated anyone elses points, I didn’t do it intentionally.

Most importantly, RIP to those poor kids who wont be given the chance to grow up and experience the beautiful variety of places, experiences, and cultures this world has to offer.