Reading old novels leaves you sounding "archaic"?

Open Forum in English
21

This is an interesting topic.
Enjoying reading all the posts here, I’ve noticed that we Japanese have much less
familiarity with our own classic novels than Western people do with their own.

I believe this is mainly because the writing system of Japanese old literature is quite
different from that of today. It is like a foreign language to me, and I cannot understand
almost anything without the dictionary.

On the other hand, I feel close to Western classics because most of them were
translated into modern Japanese after the Meiji era, about less than 150 years ago.

22

@Galiana : German literature(Germany+Austrien+Switherland) of the 20th century is very rich.
Besides well known Thomas Mann, Stefan Zweig,Erich Maria Remarque, Rainer Maria Rilke und Franz Kafka, I can name Lion Feuchtwanger, Heinrich Mann, Bertold Brecht(poems and plays), Herhard Hauptmann(plays), Erich Kästner, Max Frisch, Heinrich Böll, Siegfried Lenz, Hermann Hesse, Kurt Tucholsky, Alfred Döblin, Robert Musil, Günter Grass, Anna Segers, Martin Walser, Robert Walser, Peter Weiss, Wolfgang Borhert (very talented,but he was died as a young man), Friedrich Dürrenmatt (detective stories) and Adolf Musching.

23

First I thought just another discussion about this topic. It rises up every now and then. I thought, no, I’ll not write a post again. It is not easy for me because I have a different opinion, and it is hard to stand against all the members who enjoy classical literature.

I thought about why I have a different opinion and Helen helped me to figure out what is part of the problem. I think the changes in the way novels are written in Germany changed dramatically in the past centuries. And the same changes don’t happen for English novels. The difference between modern and classic English literatures is not as great as for German real classic literature.

In my opinion, the real German classical literature use often words, that don’t exist any longer. The language is often a little bit old fashioned. If you would speak in this way, people would think you are really strange.

Also they use often an artificial kind of language that means a language that wasn’t spoken in this way in their lifetime. It was a kind of language that you only find on stages.

The spelling is different from the modern spelling. This is not because of the last spelling reform; it is the case since WWII (or longer before).

Some of the old books are easier, others are more difficult. Kafka for example is difficult for Germans too.

When I had to read classic literature in school I disliked most of it. I asked myself why I often dislike the stories in our classical literature beside the fact that sometimes the story is interesting and I sometime really like this old fashioned style. And it is because the ending is often sad in our classic books, and a lot of books were boring for children when I was forced to read them. I’m a positive person so I have to admit, that I like books more that ends well. Also they often seem to me very “constructed”. I often got the feeling that they are not about real life. I often thought they try to follow writing rules that was set up by that was people consider as “art” of writing. I really like reading but sometimes I think in school they did there best to distract children from reading by forcing us to read classical books.

Here are some post that I wrote some time ago but I think it fits the subject of this thread:

By choosing a book you have to consider two things: What’s your goal, and which kind of book do you like. If your goal is enjoyment, and you like to read about how people thought and lived 70 and more years ago, old books are fine. They are available at Gutenberg and other sources on the internet for free. But if you like to learn language as it is spoken in our days and if you want to learn more about modern life, than you should read modern book.

There is nothing bad with old books. Some are really great. But the language that they use is often old fashioned and a kind of unnatural. The language sometimes sounds artificial. That is why they considered as art :slight_smile: But be careful. That can also happen with modern books that are considered as art.

Recently I finished my second “real” book in English. “Real” means no graded reader. It was a great experience! I chose the book carefully. I went into a book store and read the first two sites to make sure that I like it. The language that the author uses shouldn’t be too complicated, the book should not contain too many unknown words, the story should be easy that I can follow it and it should be entertaining for me. Therefore I chose a funny criminal story and the decision was perfect for me. I’ve just started the third book from this author and I really enjoy it. The language that the author uses seems to be common language. That corresponds with my goal to be able to have conversations.

I’m sorry for this long post.

24

@Vera: We are not learning foreign languages only for speaking(at least me), otherwise it would be enough to learn only 1000 words that the most of modern people use in their everyday conversations.
Yes, speaking is important, but what’s more important : to learn a new culture (and the language is the most essential part of the culture), a new attitude to the life, a new reflection of the events - and that’s all gives us the literature in foreign languages.

25

Yes, evgueny, that is why I wrote "By choosing a book you have to consider two things: What’s your goal, and which kind of book do you like. "
But 1000 words are not enough to express yourself well :wink:
Yes, to learn a new culture is important. History is interesting, and it is important to know a bit of history. But I prefer to learn about how culture in our days it. That is something that you can better pick up by modern novels, don’t you think so?

26

“And it is because the ending is often sad in our classic books, …”(VeraI)
I enjoy reading sad stories, novels written by fatalists, although I don’t want to see sad films.

27

Oh, I’m hoping that nobody in the world is beholding and judging us Germans by German literature before WWII. I would agree with Vera. German culture has changed just as literature has changed. However, not anyway, but in important parts of our life. If it is necessary in my own language that an author is forced to write in a kind of foreign language telling a story than I have no fun with such kind of literature. And I need more than 1000 words in my everyday conversations and I consider myself a modern. Grass, Tucholsky and other authors are great, literary. Please believe me, they don’t describe current live.

28

Authors such as Hugo, Zola, Balzac, etc… wrote the purest French ever. Reading them will help you improve your spelling, your writing and your french thinking pattern. This probably won’t help you in conversational French since we don’t speak this way. Nevertheless their works are a huge part of french culture and reading them is priceless.

29

Kafka may be difficult for some or even many, but not all Germans. Da ich in Eile schreibe, nur einen kleinen Tipp: Patrick Süsskind , Das Parfum und Bernhard Schlink, Der Vorleser für moderne Literatur. Many people will have seen the film The Reader.

30

Sanne, ich habe Patrick Süsskind gelesen. Ich fand das Buch einerseits großartig, auf der anderen Seite aber auch anstrengend in jeder Hinsicht: sprachlich und emotional.

As I wrote above: Important is your goal and what you like. Personally as a learner of foreign languages, I prefer modern literature which uses language as it is spoken and about life like it is. As a reader, I like a lot more. I like for example to read historical novels or novels about history.

31

I agreed with Serge the classic works won’t help you a lot (but in general they do!) in conversational English, German, French and even Russian (if you believe that a modern language is the language of teenagers!), but they learn you English, German French and Russian “thinking pattern” because they " a huge part of… culture and reading them is priceless".
@Vera: I don’t reject any good modern novels, but I find there are only few really good. Last summer I was bei meinem Freund(sorry, by my friend) in Stuttgart, and I remember his daughter from the 10th grade was reading (with all of students of the class) for two months(!) one of the modern German novels (unfortunatelly, I forgot the author) which all contents was about difficulties of the first sex contacts. Perhaps, it was more interesting for students that naturalistic and detailed sex decription but I believe that the love stories by St. Zweig or T. Mann will give to the students more experience even in love and moreover in life.
I don’t think that for example “Emil und die Detective” by E. Kästner (published in 1929) is totally obsolete for our children though the life has dramatically changed.
From the latest German literature I’ve read with some interest only “Die Klavierspielerin” by Elfriede Jellinek from Wien (Nobelprice for literature in 2004), but also without ecstasy.
@blackydierenmaus: Everybody can imagine that he/she uses 10000 words a day, but I’ve read a lot of the psychologists( and I believe them) that we use about 1000-2000 words in everyday conversations but we repeat them many times a day. Try to count your wors if you would like or better count the words of a modern novel - without repetitions it won’t be more than 3000 words. We are getting simplier, and it’s pity!

32

@evgueny: I have not a lot of time now, because we go to the theatre in a few minutes, but I wouldn’t consider Erich Kästner as a writer of classical literature. Everything from the 20th century is “modern” in my view. Maybe we have to define what is classical :wink: I personally like Erich Kästners children books a lot.
What did the daughter of your friend feel? Do you consider that teenagers feel different about what older people think is interesting?

33

I think your post is very interesting, Vera! It certainly highlights the difference between German and English literature.

Most of the old English novels that I’ve read end very well. The heroine gets married or the hero is celebrated by his fellows, and everyone is very happy. (There are notable exceptions to this, such as the novel Clarissa.)

Most of the modern English novels I’ve read end very badly, or don’t have an ending at all. This is especially prevalent in the novels considered “art” or “highbrow” by many critics. These novels have the complex plots and more difficult language that I enjoy reading, but they’re so depressing!

So I agree with you – I don’t like to read novels with sad or bad endings – but in my case that means I have to stick to historical novels. :slight_smile:

Interestingly enough, though, a lot of old English novels are very relevant to modern times – if only, as Serge and Evgueny said, because they teach you a certain thinking pattern.

I urge you to give some old English novels a try. Jane Eyre is a good choice, if you’re a fan of strong female characters. :slight_smile:

34

I’ve read classic novels and poems as well with excitement (in German). And I believe it mint my style of talking. I am talking a lot and often both with people with high fluency of speaking and with lower level - that’s life. I am interested in former history, lifestyle and culture of my forebears. But I am also interested in present life, history and culture. And I am excited about modern literature - tomorrow’s classics. It is like music in my opinion. Listening classic doesn’t lead me necessarily to a better musician and reading classics let me not necessarily understand today’s world better. The right mix is here the secret. By the way authors like Frank Schätzing and others are writing in modern but not in typical teenager language. On the other hand I’ve been reading Harry Potter both in English and German and I love it. The same with books of Michael Ende (die unendliche Geschichte; Momo - I’ve been playing Momo on the stage years ago - I have been der Frisör Fusi and one of the grey man). All in good time :slight_smile:

35

Great suggestions Horst! Schätzing is really great, but difficult because of the complexity of the story.
Michael Endes “Momo” and “Die unendliche Geschichte” are interesting for addults too. Fantastic stories.
If you like to read something funny with realistic dialogs (German as it is spoken) I recommend Susanne Fröhlich: Frisch gemacht, Frisch gepresst, Familienpackung and so forth (Funny stories about Family life). I like her audio books a lot. Maybe because she speaks with an accent which is close to mine and I remember that I listened a lot to hear when she was a radio moderator in my teen ages.
Some criminal stories from Andreas Frantz are also nice.
I have to admit that I don’t read a lot of books in the last time in German because I focus on English :wink:

36

Vera, you’re not alone. :slight_smile:
I’ve had this same conversation with Steve a couple of times, and I DO think old literature can be tricky for foreigners. I’m not specially keen on classics, but I like them, and I’ve read a lot of Brazilian ones as well as translations during my life. The effect is that I’ve also been “accused” sometimes of using archaic words in my own native language. lol
In Portuguese I like to cite Machado de Assis, because he is a strong reference when talking about Brazilian classics, and because I like his books. He lived by the end of the 19th century in Rio, and although I can subtly feel the “carioca” spirit in his typical sarcasm, I doubt that a contemporary carioca (i.e., a person born in Rio) would understand someone talking like Machado. Even while reading, I need to stop sometimes to understand some phrases. There are a lot of words in Machado’s books that the average Brazilian doesn’t know or at least would consider very funny. Not to mention that strange phrase constructions…
Anyway, as a lot of people here have already pointed out, it depends on your goals. If your goal is to travel to other countries and/or speak to natives, you’d better have the majority of your listening focused on contemporary materials. But even for someone who really loves the classics, I still would suggest some mix composed on both contemporary and classic materials. For advanced learners, for example, some podcasts and newspaper articles could be used to counter-effect the “damage” caused by non-usual readings.
Galiana, in English, big newspapers (like the New York Times, for example) have special sections and podcasts on books. Maybe you could find some of them in French, so you have a better chance to enjoy listening to modern French. :wink:

37

This is truly a fascinating discussion, and I can’t stop myself from throwing my ‘two cents’ in as well.
I agree wholeheartedly with Vera, that one must choose the content for reading that will be interesting to that person, and also help to expand comprehension. We have to start by being able to communicate.
My own path to other languages has been a little different, though. I have to say that, at some point during ‘the journey’, I really have felt that I’ve wanted to dig deeper into trying to understand what makes French/German/Italian/Polish or whatever culture what it is, as opposed to my own. For that matter, what makes Brits or (even) Americans slightly different from Canadians (at least in my experience). I do feel that the literature which has been created in these cultures reflects a great part of this. Interestingly enough, even though the average person may not be well-read in his or her ‘classic’ literature, there are many times that people, in every-day situations, tend to cross-reference what is there.
So, read what helps you in the new language, but thank God that we have access to Shakespeare, Goethe, Racine, Pushkin, et al. For me, it just makes the experience that much more beautiful.

38

Just a couple of hours ago I was returning the DVD movies into my local library. I glanced at a near shelf and the eye came across "No Fear Shakespeare. Romeo And Juliet. " On every odd page there was the original archaic Shakespear and on every even one - the corresponding, (and too simple) modern English equivalent. Like this:

odd:
JULIET
O Romeo, Romeo! Wherefore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name.
Or, if thou wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I’ll no longer be a Capulet.

even:
JULIET
(not knowing ROMEO hears her). Oh, Romeo, Romeo, why do you have to be Romeo? Forget about your father and change your name. Or else, if you won’t change your name, just swear you love me and I’ll stop being a Capulet.

I borrowed the book, not exactly knowing why. May be because I have been long working on my player for language learners, and used a Miramax DVD “Shakespear In Love” as a test movie for it. There were no less than hundred captions of the original Shakespear in this movie. I was happy with them, accepting them as poetry that needs not to be (as often with poetry) really understood.

May be now I’ll understand thes captions better, if I only read this archaic book. But it looks like I’ll enjoy it.

39

I read a text book once which claimed it was the post-war American / French / British administration of Germany that was responsible for the change in German literature, or at least in the kind of books and stories writers could get published. American publishers took charge of some of the most influential literary magazines, and basically said to Germans “if you want to get published, write like Americans”.

Can anyone confirm or deny this story?

And of course in the DDR…but that’s another story altogether.

40

Helen, even if this story is fiction, it sounds true to me. The Americans have influenced even the British. To me, your favorite J.K. Rollins is American (provocation ;-).