Prof Arguelles - 50 languages!

Open Forum
41

Peter: this is something I’ve always done. Nothing is absolutely fixed within that goal. Some good ideas of what I want to do but nothing absolute.

Moonface111: This ‘personal definition of fluency’ discussion means little to me personally. The reason for this my definition is the only one which means anything to me. I know all of the arguments for and against the various positions and have done a considerable amount of thinking about it and am seeing this all work out in practice. At the end of the day, I know what I want to achieve.

42

@moonface111 - That’s true, and I agree to an extent. However, some people, including Benny I believe, have used the “be able to do everything I can do in English” comparison before. It’s very, very difficult to do that without living there for a long time, in my opinion.

I think Friedemann already talked about bedsprings or mattresses or something, but there are many others. If there was an earthquake or some emergency, and you had to watch the news to find out what was going on (or even worse, depend on the radio for phone numbers and shelter locations), would you be adequately informed? (Needless to say this should be much harder to do in Chinese than in European languages). If you were ill and had to go to the hospital, could you explain the symptoms? Could you explain to your boss why you missed your deadline?

Perhaps the issue isn’t in the definition of the word fluency but in the fact that we choose to use the word, because it sounds so impressive.

43

Peter: that ‘be able to do everything I can do in English’ is totally what I’m going for. (Of course, I’m not running a youtube channel and a blog, or claiming to do it in 3 months.)

44

Peter - Funny you mention bedsprings and mattresses - these are the very words I might typically forget in my native tongue. ( I have lived away for a long time and do not hardly speak it anymore) but once you have learnt something and it is in the long-term memory it is usually retrievable. I often have ask what something is called in my native tongue but obviously as soon as you hear it you know it again.
If we work hard at, it is indeed possible to achieve fluency in many languages and good on Imyirtseshem for wanting to do that. He/She most certainly will with that attitude. It is the short-term memory approach that Benny has which I do not think will work.

45

I have no doubt in my mind that I can achieve it, Marianne. (He - by the way).

46

“(He - by the way)”

→

He with shoe size 16.

47

Indeed. That’s Australian men’s sizes. Not sure what that means in Canada.

48

@Aineko: "…Even the great Kato Lomb said : “Language is the only thing worth knowing even poorly” "

KL’s dictum is very true. If you think about it, it would indeed be far better to have a limited practical ability in any language rather than no ability at all. And I think this is perhaps especially true of exotic languages?

Nevertheless, I can understand A13’s point: I personally do tend towards the opinion that it’s better to focus on a few languages, and to continue working at them and reaching for a very high level in them over a period of many years.

But to each his own, of course.

49

At the moment my goal is a singularly high level in Russian. However long it might take as kind of experiment with my own conscious, I want to get a close as possible to being truly bilingual, to think and operate in the new language as though it were my first, or as near as is possible.

50

@IMY:
That means US/Canadian size 17. Very impressive.

51

The youtube polyglots have you fooled. They string together a few lines of some bland preselected topic in multiple languages. I laugh out loud when they get to Russian. I have only seen three Westerners who can speak Russian fluently (all still have accents) who did not grow up with the language. They stun the Russian speaking world. It is that rare to find. All of them have been students of Russian for decades and have spent years in the former Soviet Union. To become fluent in such a language requires many years of dedication and a complete lifestyle change. You can’t just finish an Assimil book and claim fluency.

If you think that Arguelles speaks 10 languages fluently you are gullible. I doubt if he speaks five languages fluently. He might read 5 languages very well, but that isn’t the same as speaking and understanding the spoken word. Fluency is a very high hurdle to get over. You actually don’t need to be fluent in a language to conduct day-to-day activities. Nor do you need to be fluent to hold basic conversations.

John Beyrle is the name to youtube if you want to see an authentic American speaking amazing Russian. He was the American Ambassador in Moscow. He was like a circus freak to Russians. They couldn’t get over his command of the language (still accented though). Actually, it was simple. The man is brilliant and spent decades studying and living in the former Soviet Union. Decades, not years. Think about that. Thousands of Western men live in Russia and Ukraine. They almost all have young wives and kids. Some have lived in the region for more than 15 years. I have never met one who can speak Russian fluently. Never. Some speak it well, but not fluently. Yet, there are youtube characters who claim they learned Russian by finishing a “Teach Yourself” book.

My language goals have nothing to do with fluency. Nothing to do with impressing anyone. My goal is to discover and share. That is all. I would say that 98% of language learners are the same. They want to watch tv shows in a foreign language, read magazines in a foreign language, travel, and meet new people. They are curious about the world outside of their own. For those folks every step has its own joys.

52

Something I remember very clearly was Professor Arguelles saying that you’ll need at least half a dozen books at the beginning. (going by his method) Later, you’ll need more and lots of reading and listening are required.

I think you’re just another youtube/language forum warrior, HerveVillechaize. Too busy criticising others for their language skills and not developing you own.

53

Wow it’s been a few weeks since I’ve had time to check out the lingq forums and look how lucky I am, I get to read the surefire most annoying post of year award winner from Herve up there.

It’s a great template. Everyone sucks no can learn ______ language by this definition of the fluency. You suck. We all suck. Everyone lies. blah blah blah

54

"The youtube polyglots have you fooled. They string together a few lines of some bland preselected topic in multiple languages. "
I agree

“I laugh out loud when they get to Russian. I have only seen three Westerners who can speak Russian fluently (all still have accents) who did not grow up with the language.”
then you have to improve your social activities… I guess there are more than 3

“They stun the Russian speaking world. It is that rare to find. All of them have been students of Russian for decades and have spent years in the former Soviet Union. To become fluent in such a language requires many years of dedication and a complete lifestyle change.”
just a couple of years… wait, a lifestyle change? err… I do not like this kind of religious approach, sowy

“You can’t just finish an Assimil book and claim fluency.”
I agree

“If you think that Arguelles speaks 10 languages fluently you are gullible.”
for me, fluent isn’t the same as near-native and I don’t think we need more than 5 years to be darn good in a language if we really work our socks off… so, in short, yeah I am gullible by your definition and not so much by my 5 year one

“I doubt if he speaks five languages fluently. He might read 5 languages very well, but that isn’t the same as speaking and understanding the spoken word.”
in fact, it’s not that hard… I don’t know if he speaks or doesn’t those langs fluently, but it seems to be he’s got a pretty good lvl in most of them

“Fluency is a very high hurdle to get over. You actually don’t need to be fluent in a language to conduct day-to-day activities. Nor do you need to be fluent to hold basic conversations.”
yep

“John Beyrle is the name to youtube if you want to see an authentic American speaking amazing Russian. He was the American Ambassador in Moscow. He was like a circus freak to Russians. They couldn’t get over his command of the language (still accented though). Actually, it was simple. The man is brilliant and spent decades studying and living in the former Soviet Union. Decades, not years. Think about that. Thousands of Western men live in Russia and Ukraine. They almost all have young wives and kids. Some have lived in the region for more than 15 years. I have never met one who can speak Russian fluently. Never. Some speak it well, but not fluently.”
maybe your standards are a lil bit too high (or even delusional)… I know there are some people who just don’t care about getting a good level but that’s a different story… if you work your ass off (plus good materials, exposure and motivation) you wouldn’t need more than 5 years to get a C2… but yeah, most people are lazy, and I AM “most people” :smiley:

“Yet, there are youtube characters who claim they learned Russian by finishing a “Teach Yourself” book.”
for me that’s not that bad… they’re not saying they’re gonna get a C1 level in 3 months at least (opss xD)

“My language goals have nothing to do with fluency. Nothing to do with impressing anyone. My goal is to discover and share. That is all. I would say that 98% of language learners are the same. They want to watch tv shows in a foreign language, read magazines in a foreign language, travel, and meet new people. They are curious about the world outside of their own. For those folks every step has its own joys.”
you’re damn right… I approve this message… nope, only this paragraph…

55

"The youtube polyglots have you fooled. They string together a few lines of some bland preselected topic in multiple languages. "

I wonder who this refers to. Me? Gulp! or Richard Simcott or Luca for example? I will be doing an interview with Richard and we will speak a little longer in Russian than Luca and I did. (We cut ours short because we had been going in 6 other languages for an hour and I had to go).

I am not fluent, but then I have only spent 2 weeks in Russia and have mostly been listening and reading. My level is what you hear, and I would be glad to have an unrehearsed discussion on any subject in Russian and let all my mistakes hang out. I believe that Richard is much better, and must admit that I was most impressed by Luca’s level. There are many fluent speakers of other languages, including Chinese (where I consider myself fluent), who have never lived in the country where the language is spoken, as is the case with my Mandarin. If that is true for Mandarin it is probably true for Russian. I have head many fluent non-native Russian speakers interviewed on Echo Moskvi, including the aforementioned former US Ambassador.

If we leave perfection aside, it is quite possible to achieve a good level in one’s own country. Ideally one gets an opportunity for eventually immersing oneself in the country at least for a few weeks, to allow these skills to coalesce into reasonable fluency.

56

I am looking forward to watching the upcoming “Steve talks to Richard” videos because I only talk with Richard in all the languages I can speak myself, but I don’t hear him speaking Russian, Swedish or some other languages on Skype. He has his very own opinions and experiences and it will be interesting to listen which kind of discussion will develop out of this.

Fasulye

57

I would agree that perfection should not be the standard for what we call fluency. However I do think that it should be more than a level where we struggle almost all the time and have to resort to Benny type hacks like body language etc. to make ourselves understood.

Regarding the polyglot videos I have to agree that many of them sound rather stiff and just tend to recycle the same phrases and topics over and over again. In the Chinese video that Luca and Steve made you can certainly hear that Luca has a great ear and feel for the sound and structure of that language but I find that real Chinese as I hear it everyday sounds very different.

58

@Friedemann

If I ever wanted to learn the tones in Chinese, I would watch the following clip from a TV-news report many times over! :smiley:

59

My reaction is ‘What should we expect?’

Being in front of a camera is different from real life, naturally. "We’re people who are known in the language community. Let’s talk about hockey.’ Fine, I’m not watching the video. (My apologies to any fans - it could be football or Big Brother and my response would be the same.)

Notice we’re talking about languages here? It’s a common interest. I don’t really talk about much else here. Now, one could conclude that this is all I talk about in English! Sounds bloody ridiculous doesn’t it? They obvious speak on other things off camera.

The same phrases? Bloody hell man that’s language. (Why do I see this comment so much??)

Of course, when people go to a particular place to meet up and do an interview about languages or set out some time to talk specifically about languages on Skype, let’s criticise them for talking about languages! Gotta keep those keyboard warrior skills honed!

60

@Imyirtseshem

I have to admit, I don’t really ‘get’ people who make sweeping attacks on the entire youtube-polyglot community. For me this does rather hint at a kind of small-minded envy on their part. It’s almost as if these folks are saying: ‘well, it took ME years of sweat at college to learn Russian, so how dare Moses or Steve or Luca (or whoever) be able to speak it after just 1 year using Assimil or LingQ, etc!’

The truth is, an experienced polyglot who uses Assimil Russian (or LingQ or Linguaphone) for 1 hour every day for 6-8 months will most probably speak and understand Russian much better than the average Joe who has had 6 semesters of Russian at college plus a one month trip to Moscow…

That’s just the way it is.