Once Again

I have the strong impression that, in arguing about topics such as this, there’s a strong tendency to align with some general views, cosmovisions in a sense, agendas, to use another term. I consider that wrong because, in my opinion, it typically leads to mix sensible ideas with very doubtful ones. As I mentioned in another post, George Orwell called that way of thinking “nationalist thinking” (George Orwell: Notes on Nationalism).

To name the main positions. Most people seem to align themselves with either:
a) A “conservative” view. According to this (among other things) Israel must defend itself at all costs, Syrian refugees are a danger and must be rejected, Islam is the cause of terrorism, …
b) A “liberal” view. According to this, Israel is the sole responsible of the middle east conlict, Syrian refugees must be welcomed, the "West"past actions are solely responsible for the current terrorist wave, …

I find both positions lacking in logic and ethical integrity in many points and I can’t help thinking that people supporting them are more concerned about advancing their pet positions than in reflecting upon important issues, just as G. Orwell described in his essay.

Just as an example of what ideas of either position I disagree with, I’ll address the topic of this thread and of a past one:

a) Conservative view. Their position about refugees is morally wrong and absurd. Refusing help to people running from a terrible war is wicked and only helps to justify criticism against the west, and especially about west’s hypocrisy. Even if very pressing circumstances would make it difficult or impossible to accept all refugees, alternative solutions should be investigated and, at the very least, recognize that any rejection’s a tragedy. My opinion of “conservatives” can’t be worse every time I hear them, not only advocating the dismissal of refugees, but also doing it in a cold manner, as if, at the very least, doing that weren’t a moral dilemma.

b) Liberal view. The idea that every act of terror, no matter how cruel and senseless, is (if not justified, at least explained by a “collective” guilt arising from the western past political acts is also morally repugnant. Besides, it’s just being blind, if they insist on not seeing the direct connection between modern Islam as a religion/culture/ideology [mind you, not of individual muslims] in the current wave of terror attacks, as well as on undefendable attitudes to women, homosexuals, non-muslims and other collectives. And that, independently of Islam’s past achievements.

As a further example [from yet another forum thread], maximalist, blanket notions about Israel/Palestine, as if one of the parts are “good” and the other “bad” are childish and simplistic, if not outright silly. That includes both the typical “conservative” and the “liberal” positions, at least as they tend to be voiced in forums such as this one and others in the net. It’s obvious for anyone who has not relinquished their ability to reason, that both parties have carried out unjustifiable acts and that both of them have a right to a safe, dignified existence that they’re all too often denied.

“…Your character seems to be as weak as your intellectual rigor…”

My character is very weak indeed - no doubt. But as regards “intellectual rigour”, well, based on your crankish level of debate here, how likely is it that I’ll take any lessons from you!?

“…You made an erroneous accusation, couldn’t defend it…”

No. One of my replies to another poster could have given the impression, therefore I was gracious enough to clarify that I do not accuse you of directly supporting/justifying terrorism. I was (and still remain) sorry if I gave that impression.

“…So my post AND my points still stand uncontested…”

I’m afraid not. I absolutely stand by my point i.e. that it is wrong to make sweeping and collective statements of guilt. If I have criticised you on this, I have done so based on exact quotations.

“…you just changed your critique in the middle of the discussion…”

No I didn’t. I made the point from the start - as you well know.

“…it is now obvious that you don’t even understand what I am talking about and that this very notion is beyond you…”

That is evidently what you fondly think. Whether it is “obvious” is another matter entirely :slight_smile:

"…Anyone who comprehends text will see that I never made a “sweeping and collective statements of guilt…”

Seriously? Here is another exact quote from you, that has been pointed out to me from another thread (“Language , human migration and human conflict”) where you wrote:

“…And I say we because the state is an extension of ourselves. As long as we in our relatively free and safe societies give support or tacit acquiescence to the states and their campaign of terror against civilian populations, we share the blame…”

So please spare me any blustering protestations about “undue inference”, “straw man arguments”, etc. Your own words make it entirely clear that you are referring to collective blame.

(EDITS)

These are interesting points, Ftornay. It’s true that most people do tend to align and consciously label themselves politically as being “left” or “right” or “conservative”, or whatever. In reality I suspect the views of most people over a range of issues would be (if analysed) much more nuanced. Moreover positions on any given issue can be radically changed in the face of events: the person who has “liberal” views about justice and sentencing may start to suffer from high rates of serious crime in his/her area, etc; or, to give a different example, the person who has “conservative” views about immigration may have a business that greatly benefits as a result of large scale immigration…in each case the person’s position/view may move a long way.

For sure some people (perhaps typically people who are active in professional politics) have a particular political agenda to advance. But I would like to think that most people are at least capable of being open minded, of reflecting, of considering whether they are wrong, whether they could be over-simplifying matters, etc.

I facepalm at both sides.

The liberal view is making me pull my hair out for the reasons I described in my other posts:
-They’ll call the ones afraid and weary of the Syrian immigrants racist and xenophobic.
-They consider anything short of full citizenship and welcoming to be anti-immigration
-When you bring up the idea that there might be a mole within the refugees, the only response they’ll give is: “Well, not all of them can be terrorists.”

The conservative view can be just as annoying, it’s just the stupidity isn’t strategically well timed like the liberal views:
-Their hindsight bias already has them believe all Muslims are bad (which we know isn’t true) because of Obama.
-Israel must be defended at all costs. Even though, Israel is like the bully on the playground that picks on the little kid and is given extra snacks from the teacher. The minute the little kid fights back to defend himself, Israel cries and says he’s the victim.

+Prinz_Schtick
Unfortunately, I can’t see that very often. I do believe Orwell’s analysis still applies.

There are about 1.8 billion Muslims in the world so I don’t see how you can blame the entire Islamic population for these inhuman acts . I don’t think that I have any right to hate the French people for example , for the killing of around 1 million Algerians during the revolution which took place some decades ago .

And also you are contradicting yourself , first you say: "I feel the hatred of Muslims for the 9/11 attacks’’ then you say that you are not an Islamophobe , so which is it ? Here’s also some piece of news that most of the media deliberately left out:Paris Attacks: Suicide Bomber Was Blocked From Entering Stade de France - WSJ

The thing with that supposedly Syrian guy’s passport lying around so conveniently could’ve been the work of a Mosad agent .

We all feel appalled at what happened to those innocent civilians and we should try to be sensible and understand that terrorism knows no religion and that it only represents an issue that is synonymous with chaos .

Hatred is to have a hate of something, while phobe/phobia is to have a fear. I have a hate of radical/Extremist Muslims, but I’m not afraid of the other Muslims. I actually have few Muslim freinds. In defining these terminology, how do I contradicting myself? :slight_smile:

Ftornay warning to you or anyone who I may, might, and/o will offend for what I’m about to say, which may make me look, sound, smell, and taste like a conservative. YOU’VE BEEN WARNED!

https://www.yahoo.com/news/first-attacker-identified-paris-carnage-062900962.html

One of the paris terrorists was a refugee.

You didn’t mention radical/Extremist Muslims.It’s good to hear that you don’t fear Muslims, no one should.Also we all must hate extremists no matter where their origin is . They don’t have a place among us normal , peace-loving people .

the attacks in paris are horrible they tell me a couple of things Europe has got to change and be more proactive unless they want the far right parties to start getting a foothold they have to get tough with these muslim populations .and start putting up fences and border controls stop letting all these people in without checking who they are make them damn aware. thisain’t the middle east we will respect their religion only if it does not interfere with the laws of the land. ex sharia law.burquas, honour killings .arranged marriages to minors

and i’m going to say islam in it’s present state is not compatible with the rest of the modern world you can talk all about moderate islam and all that but you don’t see any other religion with this type of behaviour.and they are extremists christians jews,hindus and Buddhists but not anything like islam

All these comments come from an expert in the Qu’ran, Hadeeth and Fikh I presume ? Also I want to clarify a very important issue and that is related to the fact that there isn’t a thing called as ‘‘moderate Islam’’. Islam in itself is that middle way which transcends all extreme behaviors in order to give its followers true satisfaction in this world and the next.

I want to add that forced marriages are strictly forbidden in Islam and even that Shariah law almost everybody in the West is afraid , is not even present in any country where the majority of its population consists of Muslims.

These people still think that we’re still in the 1960’s, where black people were segregated. They’re appalling. It is 2015 where black people, women, and Asian people have had the most and the best freedom ever in history, but if they keep up this pc culture our freedoms will be squandered.

Physical science? I did some physical science in high school a long time ago, but I’m guessing that college physical science is a lot more advanced than what I learned.

Liberals are always stronger and often times untouchable in packs, but when they are alone they are easy pray. I’d like to see this on the animal channel. XD

Have you seen the video with the reporter being pushed back by these Mizzou protesters?

The protesters have freedom of speech while the media doesn’t. I feel like I’m living in a sort of communist, socialist, or censorship county.

Any radical/Extremist of any ideology or religion shouldn’t be allowed to exist in this world. Let’s all of us try to change the world for the better and in a peaceful way.

Physical sciences in colleges refers to physics, chemistry, or mathematics.

It’s not necessary to be an expert in Qu’ran to understand that what you claim is a far cry from the truth.

Just an example (among hundreds):
“Then, when the sacred months have passed,
slay the idolaters wherever ye find them,
and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.
But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free.
Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful”

فَإِذَا انْسَلَخَ الْأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ
فَاقْتُلُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدْتُمُوهُمْ
وَخُذُوهُمْ وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُوا لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ
فَإِنْ تَابُوا وَأَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ
فَخَلُّوا سَبِيلَهُمْ
إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ

These are the sacred words of “God”. Really a middle way. The middle way between killing non-muslims or fine them because of their faith if they accept second-order citizenship.

Anyway, regardless of the letter of the Qur’an, I agree with the OP in this (among other things):
If we heard one condamnation of violence by “moderate muslims” or “Islam defenders” (as I think you are) for every ten justifications of Islam after a terrorist attack. The idea of Islam as a “middle way” would ring a bit more credible.

Just curious - do the majority of Moslems still believe that the the destiny of the world is to be 100% Islam, and that anything to expedite this process is justifiable? I think the Christians stopped believing this a long time ago, but I could be wrong.

It is interesting how when Paris gets attacked, the whole world bursts in outcry and grief, while in Beirut, a similar incident happened recently where a bombing killed 43 people also due to ISIS, but the media does not seem to publicize it to such an extent. Perhaps so many people have been killed in the Middle East already that bombings and killings there have already become the status quo? Of course, that is not to say that the Paris attacks should be ignored, just something to think about…

The media are doing their job, selling advertising time on the backs of eyeballs. The unfortunate truth us that the tribalism that makes the west stare at media more about Paris than Beirut, or planes shot down in Egypt or even Ukraine, is the same tribalism that makes the western economy work, and sadly, the same tribalism that animates ISIL.

I encourage the west to acknowledge these sentiments but recognise them for what they are. As Nietzche said, “There is no liar like an indignant man.”

I know. I’ve had some pre-calculus, which was painful. Chemistry was my favorite topic back in high school. Physics wasn’t as great as the other sciences. I even had taken botany class, which I still use since I grow my own herbs and hot peppers. Dimethylamine which subject/topic is your favorite?