ad Friedemann: (…) The question at hand was whether we in this elite linguist club would be able to pin down speech as native or non-native, irrespective of whether or not there is stigma attached to a non native accent.(…)
To be honest, I don’t think there is anybody out there who can consistently speak more than one language the way natives do. Not even so-called bilingual people. I have nephews and nieces that grow up bilingually and I don’t think they always sound a 100 % native in both languages. I have had the same experience with other bilingual people. There are always some slight interferences. As I said, if you listen to someone for 10 minutes, maybe half an hour, he or she might sound native but I don’t think anybody will sound native all the time if he or she is not.
I like to think of myself as someone who has a decent accent in English but, believe me, there are times when I speak and I realize that the way I just pronounced a word is almost screaming “foreigner” ;-). That’s just the way it is.
One of my former fellow students is English and the first couple of times I met him I really thought he was Austrian. There was not the slightest trace of an accent in the way he spoke. Since then we have become friends and we have known each other for more than 20 years now. We have had many excellent discussions and while he undoubtedly has an excellent command of German and speaks with an admirable accent, people will be able to tell that German is not his native tongue if they talk to him long enough.
To sum it up, personally I don’t think anybody can speak and/or write more than one language like a native. You may manage to write some articles, hold some speeches etc. where people think you are a native but then you might just want to grab a bite, go to a store, talk to the shop assistant there and sound foreign again. I see and hear that happen all the time.
I think if you and Friedemann changed your flags, everyone who read your posts here would think you are educated native English speakers (unless of course they already knew you were not).
@peter “I would be interested in hearing what a Spanish speaker thinks about Daniel’s “command” of Spanish (accent aside).”
First at all, is that a catalan show?. A couple of little, very little and almost imperceptible, mistakes here and there but his overall “command” is quite impressive.
I dream of the day when my French is so impeccable that people can only nitpick my accent, but my speech is filled with much more glaring red flags for the moment. When listening to Luca I often feel he could have more of a foreign accent, he’s so good that his very occasional slips in pronunciation stand out more than they should.
For me the pleasure of being understood far outweighs any concerns about my accent, although I do read out loud as much as I can, and it has greatly improved my pronunciation. But I’m not French, I never will be, so why should I ever speak flawless sounding French? I’m not a James Bond-esque spy trying to infiltrate a secret organization of foreigners by passing myself off as one of their own, so why worry about it? I would prefer that people can tell that I’m not native, but are able to also tell that I have put in the time and effort to learn their language to an exceptional level. Hence I’m somewhat proud of my native accent, even when I’m trying to conceal it. I’m curious where the motivation for the perfect accent comes from, for those who have the ambition. Maybe I’m not skilled enough to worry about that yet
I’m a French native speaker, I’ve spoken with Luca many times and I can testify to his native-like accent in French. Not only is his pronunciation flawless, but he also has an impressive mastery of everyday slang. He sometimes misses a “verlan” word here and there but hey, so do I.
Regarding the mistakes Juju noticed in Luca’s video, I’m pretty curious as to when exactly he can hear him saying “la cerveau”, because I can’t.
As far as his german is concerned, he probably wouldn’t pass for a native but my girlfriend was really impressed by the progress he’s made since his first video back in 2008. The guy just works his buns off to improve his languages, even the ones he is already fluent in.
As a native speaker of (American) English, I would say that Luca’s accent is incredibly good, but not native. For me, it is his pronunciation of certain vowels that gives him away. But his accent is, relatively speaking, better than most other non-native English speakers one is likely to hear. Not that it matters, as Steve says. I could count on one hand how many non-native English speakers I know who could pass as natives. It’s so exceedingly rare.
Also, I find that the non-native speakers of English with whom I’m most impressed are those who have noticeable accents. I had a history professor who was a native German speaker. He spoke with a prominent German accent–I believe he was from Frankfurt–but his command of grammar, idiom, and his elegant phrasing were incredible to me.
Well, even if this discussion is about accents, I have to say that what impresses me of Luca’s achievements is how good and fast his results are. Recently he was on the front page of a Polish newspaper because he gave an interview to a polish journalist in Polish. Other journalists were so impressed that they want him on polish TV now, and this only after one year of studying relatively little!
So, I think that while the input strategy is good, human interaction is key to learning fast and to establishing an emotional bond with the language and its speakers. I think that this is Luca’s message. I think that unless you live in a foreign country using skype as Luca does is the new frontier of language learning.
Luca just amazing! He surely has to be one of the most impressive polyglots in the online community.
Polish is (from what I’ve heard) one of the toughest languages out there. Anyone who can give TV-interviews after only one year of study has to be a real genius, IMO.
(The average person could live in Poland for two or three years, studying the language full time…and he/she still wouldn’t be good enough to give interviews, probably.)
I agree that Luca’s pronunciation in his languages is truly outstanding. I know that he has lived in France, and I believe he spent quite a few months in Spain, and even lived in Russia. His German pronunciation is astoundingly good. He attributes that to interacting with German tourists in Italy. His Swedish and Chinese pronunciation are also excellent. I don’t think he has lived in those countries. I don’t know how long he lived in Poland nor how much interaction he had with Polish people. I should point out that with a knowledge of Russian, and enough time and interaction with Polish people, Polish should not be any more difficult then Czech. I feel that my Czech would improve significantly if I were able to spend even a few months in that country.
I agree that to speak a language well and pronounce a language well, we need to speak a lot. Those languages that I seek the best, French and Japanese, are also the ones that I have spoken the most, having lived in France and Japan. I have never lived in China or Spain, but probably have spoken more in those languages than in the other languages that I speak, and therefore speak them better than the others.
The question is not whether speaking a language is necessary in order to achieve fluency. It obviously is. The question is, rather, how to organize enough speaking in order to achieve that break through. Few of us have the opportunity of going to live in the country where the language we are learning is spoken.
On the other hand, I can listen and read whenever I want. I can listen while driving, doing the dishes and while exercising. Right now I am refreshing my Italian, enjoying fascinating Italian podcasts on history and famous people, basically using what would otherwise be there in time during my day. I also have had regular conversations with our Italian tutors here at LingQ. I may listen and read in Italian several hours a day, at different times of the day. It is far more difficult to organize Skype conversations, since it requires me to be seated in front of my computer at a predetermined time. Maybe we should try to organize conversations with tutors that would be accessible while driving a car or exercising.
I would also like to add that speaking is not everything when it comes to language learning. Comprehension and vocabulary are also extremely important. Much depends on our goals and our needs. A large vocabulary, and good reading and listening comprehension, enable us to enjoy the language even if we live far away from where the language is spoken. Thus we can enjoy literature, movies, radio and television programs, etc. and learn more about the culture of the language. These seemingly passive activities can be major sources of enjoyment. They also build up our speaking potential, so that when we are in a situation where we can speak more, we quickly improve.
Not cool, dude. Talking on the phone, whether hands-free or not, has been consistently shown in studies to significantly raise accident rate.
I’m pretty sure, though of course willing to be corrected if wrong, that the studies have also compared cell phone use with radio, cd, or speaking with a passenger and concluded that the cell phone conversations were much worse.
Luca recently uploaded two very interesting videos about intonation in language learning. This is a tiny part of what he taught me and I think it is very useful for english learners, so I wanted to share it with you.
Not to take anything away from Luca (who I admire greatly), I find that focusing too much on sounding like a native leads to people not working on their syntax enough.
Why does anyone want to sound like a native? Surely an accent is a mark of one’s nationality? Or perhaps I am too patriotic
@Jimbo
All I can say is that if I ever get a chance to live in France, priority #1 for me will be to erase the accent. French people are so used to Anglo-Saxon tourists with a 100 word vocabulary that the English accent just indicates inability to speak French to them. I have friends who say I’m the only American they have ever met who actually speaks the language.
French people have really different ways of rating accents compared to us in the US and England, I think. I have gotten everything from being told that mine is ‘light’ to ‘strong’ on the same day. I have been told I speak very clearly, and I have been told to slow down when I speak. I know people who speak much better than I who are often responded to in English.
I have been told in France that fluency means zero accent more often than I have heard Steve’s definition, or anything like it, there.
“I know people who speak much better than I who are often responded to in English.”
That never happened to me, but two girls I´ve talked to in Paris told me to “searchööö for someoneööö who do speaking English”.
Most people I´ve talked to we´re pretty friendly, though
They never tried to speak English to me and only one of them mentioned my accent.
Maybe Djvl´s “English accent = bad at french”-theory is true.
“They never tried to speak English to me and only one of them mentioned my accent.
Maybe Djvl´s “English accent = bad at french”-theory is true.”
People tried to speak English to me, but once I spoke more than two sentences they stopped. It just takes them realizing that I actually do speak French.
I noticed that vendors would tell me how much I owed them in English. They seemed very worried about getting the right money.
Me: ‘Bonne journée, je vais prendre celui-la’
Them: too euro pleeze
I have to admit that this mostly has to do with Paris. People in Nancy, where I stayed a month, were absolutely lovely and laidback. I spent a couple days near Aix-en-provence, and I really enjoyed the people there too.
Because “deux euro, s’il vous plaît” is incredibly hard to understand. ^^
“I have to admit that this mostly has to do with Paris. People in Nancy, where I stayed a month, were absolutely lovely and laidback. I spent a couple days near Aix-en-provence, and I really enjoyed the people there too.”
I´ve made the same experience. French people are awesome, as long as you´re not in Paris. ^^
Either did I.
The people in Paris expect you to speak French very well or not to speak at all.
The most popular answer for my questions: ‘Je ne comprend pas’ - and it discouraged me to study French because I will never be able to speak like a native French person, and then I’d better speak in Paris English or German.
However, it was better in Marceille and in Lille.
