Modern Methods for Teaching Classical Languages

Open Forum
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“…plus you don’t have to worry about interference because you only “activate” the modern language…”

This is a very good point - one that perhaps often gets overlooked. Normally I would worry greatly about interference - if for example someone were learning Afrikaans first in oder to make Dutch easier. Doing this would, without a shadow of doubt, make a passive comprehension of Dutch exponentially easier to acquire. But it might then be extremely tough to start actively adopting more complex morphology, strong verbs, etc, after having learned to operate a (so to speak) “simplified version” of the language. But in the case of Modern Greek vis-à-vis Ancient Greek that isn’t really going to be an issue. I mean, with each and every respect to Prof Rico, almost nobody is going to want or need to speak an older form of Greek today!

As for Modern Greek, even if it isn’t the biggest language in the world in terms of native speakers, and even if very many Greeks do speak excellent English, still there could be some realistic value in an active knowledge of it.

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PROBLEMS WITH KRASHEN

When talking about Modern Methods I think most Latin teachers would be interested in Krashen and comprehensible input – i.e. giving the students the meaning up front without making them work it out for themselves. There’s a lot of interest in comprehensible input, especially in the States.

While I think that the theory is certainly correct – we acquire language when the brain understands messages – Krashen has stuck a ball and chain onto his own theory by defining comprehensible input exclusively in terms of the L2. There’s now an entire generation of teachers who will tell you that comprehensive input is i + 1, or input that is slightly above the students current level of L2 knowledge. They use nothing but L2 in the classroom and try to give the students that extra +1 via gestures, miming etc.

This makes comprehensible input really hard to teach.

A much easier way, IMHO, is instead of minimising use of the L1 is to make it the centrepiece of comprehensible input via bi-lingual texts.

For example, here’s a bi-lingual interlinear text and translation that gives direct L1 to L2 equivalence for each word.

The input is compelling because it is a great story told in the original language, but also perfectly comprehensible to the student because of the interlinear translation, even though it might be i + 6 or more compared to their current language level.

It is German story by Wolfgang Borchert, written just after the war. Die Kuckenuhr.

Comprehensible input is definitely the way ahead; I’ve been using it for the past eight years with my own students and it works. And the easiest way to make the input comprehensible to the student is simply to tell them what it means in their own language.

But Krashen won’t allow this. It’s all very frustrating.

*** EDIT ***

Sorry Prinz_Skjegg. Didn’t see your Vera Birkenbühl post. Yes! Use interlinear translations to give extensive comprehensible input from Day One. Now you’re talking! Pump bucketloads of comprehensible input into the students’ heads via interlinear translations! Forget the crippled Krashen method.

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In my own personal experience (which is admittedly mostly from an autodidactic perspective) these kind of interlinear or parallel texts are absolutely indispensable at the initial stages of learning.

There does come a point, though, where one has developed a kind of critical mass of vocabulary and structure, and from that point onwards one can profitably go “bare back” (if one will allow that term!) and use the target language only.

It’s hard to define where exactly this point is, however. It probably varies from one target language to the next, and also depends on the leaner’s native language and competence in other languages.

Thus the native speaker of English who already knows German very well can dispense with those linguistic Trojans very much earlier when learning Danish or Dutch, let us say, than could a native speaker of Japanese who knows no other Germanic languages.

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OK. Now we are getting somewhere. We will use comprehensible input, but unlike Krashen we will base it on the L1, not on the L2.

And here things improve dramatically, because this idea of using bi-lingual texts to make input comprehensible has been around for centuries. I think the philosopher John Locke started it with his Aesop in the 1660’s or so, then in the 1780’s the Frenchman Dumarsais (Methode Raisonee pour apprendre la langue Latine), then James Hamilton in the 1820s, then in Germany around the 1850’s two Germans Toussaint and Langenscheidt made interlinear translations the basis of their Unterrichtsbriefen series. (I picked this up from a 1908 book by Leopold Bahlsen who says that the Toussaint-Langenscheidt method constitutes a “page of honour in the history of language teaching”, but I haven’t been able to find out much more about it. The German firm Langenscheidt is now an international organisation. Perhaps German users of LINGQ might be able to tell us more.

Anyhow, the man who really put this method on the map was James Hamilton. Up till then the interlinear translations had been fairly free, but Hamilton insisted that the student should be able to rely upon each English word as being a faithful rendition of the Latin word above it, so his interlinear translations are completely literal and faithful to the foreign text.

The good news for students of Latin and Greek is that Hamilton and his followers, principally Thomas Clark in the USA, produced interlinear translations for much of Latin literature.

They didn’t do much for Greek (only St John’s Gospel, Homer Iliad 1-6, Xenophon Anabasis and Demosthenes De Corona) but if you can speak French there is a lot of Greek literature available in the “Juxtalineaire” series published by Hachette in the 1880’s.

So there’s tons of Latin and Greek literature available in comprehensible input format. You can download it as PDF from GoogleBooks or buy as print-on-demand reprints.

Here’s a discussion about the Hamiltonian System on HTLAL, with a list of available titles.
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26299

And here an example of Evan Milner reading (a bit jerkily) a Hamiltonian interlinear of Cornelius Nepos, vintage 1825.

Here he is again, this time reading some of Erasmus’s Dialogues. This time it’s a parallel column bi-lingual text, vintage 1804

An example of a Traduction Juxtalineaire for Greek published by Hachette, This one is Euripides’ Hippolytus, vintage 1848.

Obviously if we are talking of parallel texts, you need to know about the Loeb Classical Library. This series is published by Harvard and covers most of Greek and Latin literature. If you go to a university Classics course most people will be using Loebs.

The Loeb has facing pages of Latin and English and the translations are often fairly free, so they are neither specific enough or literal enough for the beginner. So if you wanted, say, to read Caesar’s Gallic War I would buy the Hamiltonian interlinear to help you nail down the grammar with it’s very strict literal translation, but also buy the Loeb for a nice modern Latin text and flowing translation,

Here’s Pastor Steve Waldron to give us a Loeb demo:

and the Hamiltonian interlinear of Caesar on Abebooks

Finally, have to include this one: the totally awesome Charlton Griffin has made Audiobooks of most of the Greek and Roman historians. Here’s his Caesar Gallic War. Turn up the sound to maximum and play the opening full blast!

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My own favorite intermediate Ancient Greek texts right now are not bilingual (although I do accept that they may be helpful). I’m absolutely in love with the "Intermediate Greek Reader! series by Stephen Nimis and Edgar Evan Hayes. It’s the closest thing to “Lingq on paper” that I’ve found and the material is absolutely compelling:

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These little books look like an awesome learning resource! Mind you, some of them appear to be pretty hot stuff! Lucian’s "Dialogues of the Courtesans"is pretty much a handbook for prostitutes, isn’t it!? :stuck_out_tongue:

You could say Greek literature touches polar opposite extremes: the New Testament on one hand and Lucian on the other…

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Not to forget gods and ghosts!!!
And then romance + more gods!

In the last weeks, I myself have gone from:
https://www.amazon.com/Infancy-Gospel-Thomas-Intermediate-Ancient/dp/1494765683/
To:
https://www.amazon.com/Xenophon-Ephesus-Ephesian-Tale-Intermediate/dp/1514295555/

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Thanks Ftornay, there’s some good stuff here. I hadn’t realised that Nimiss and Hayes had done so many texts. They and Geoffrey Steadman are the two best sources now for intermediate level texts because they save so much time looking up vocab. Geoffrey Steadman’s website here: https://geoffreysteadman.com/

I’d like to wrap this up by going back to a point raised by Prinz_Skjegg right at the beginning – sound files.

We have lots of Latin literature and some Greek available in comprehensible input format so that problem is sorted.

But we have virtually no sound. These are dead languages so there are no native speakers.

So what exactly do we actually need by way of sound files?

I’m struggling a bit here: Do we need just a few hours so that learners can listen to them and develop a good feeling for sound in their heads? Probably ThePrinceSterling and his eight hours or so of Caesar would suffice for this.

Or do we need a sound version of EVERY text, so that people can listen along to it while they are reading?

Would it be a worthwhile project to aim to get good quality recordings made of most of Greek and Latin authors and put into the public domain?

I have quite a lot of contacts in the Classics world here in the UK, so I’d be happy to put this forward as a formal proposal to the Classical Association - if you think it’s the right way ahead.

So, to summarise, do we need good quality audios in the original languages for most of Latin and Greek literature?

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“…do we need good quality audios in the original languages for most of Latin and Greek literature?..”

I would say so. I don’t know how many learners of Classical languages there are, but I would think any that there are would definitely benefit from the audios.

“…I have quite a lot of contacts in the Classics world here in the UK, so I’d be happy to put this forward as a formal proposal to the Classical Association - if you think it’s the right way ahead…”

I would bring this up with Steve and Mark Kaufmann.

Maybe they would even be prepared to pay some of these people for some audio, if there is a demand?

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i see teach yourself has courses for latin ,babylonian ,ancient egyptian ,old english ancient greek don’t they have audio with them ?couldn’t someone import them into linqg if they wanted

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It really breaks down into audios for beginners and audios of the literature.

BEGINNER AUDIO: TEACH YOURSELF

kolpack, Thanks for this. Teach Yourself is George Sharpley who Prinz_Skjegg mentioned earlier.

On his website there’s some very nice Latin readings indeed; this one of Aeneas leaving Dido in Virgil Aeneid IV.

http://www.lingua.co.uk/latin/readings/reading2/

I’ll contact him and ask if he would like to stick some of his stuff on LINGQ, including maybe those earlier audios about mysteries in the monastery.

BEGINNER AUDIO – FABULAE FACILES

Just to mention that I’ve put up around 80 chapters of Ritchie’s Fabulae Faciles onto LINGQ.

First there’s a “Primer” with the meaning, then the actual text.

Useful for beginners to get familiar with the sound of the language, but no grammar and vocabulary. For that buy the printed version by Geoffrey Steadman here:

INTERMEDIATE/ADVANCED LITERATURE AUDIO

Prinz_Skjegg, yes it’s obvious isn’t?
We need audios of everything.

No need to ask Steve and Mark to pay; the Classical Association is rolling in money.

I’ll put a together a specification and a proposal for them.

Quite a few questions to think over on the pronunciation side, especially Ancient Greek.

Be authentic or be easy to listen to?
Ignore accents?
Erasmian or Modern Greek?
Stress accent or pitch accent?

We’ll never get agreement on this. Maybe in the end we will have to produce several versions of each work.

The key thing is to get the project on the map and get something organised. The schools are now installing these VLE Virtual Learning Environments where they can load up mp3 audio files for the kids’ homework, so we need to provide them with the material.

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This seems to be a promising contribution!