I didn’t ever thought about there being a rule, to be honest. I mean, of course there must be some, I just never spend any thought on that matter. That’s what I was suggesting, that if something is done in a foreign language in a similar or identical way as in the languages you already know, especially your native language, you don’t have to learn anything new and therefore don’t have to think about rules, but if not then you either familiarize with it over time and do it by feeling (like in your mother tongue) or you need rules.
However, there are occassions were I need to rely on rules or look them up even in my mother tongue. So I am not sure whether this is an issue if it is restricted to only a few matters.
Very interesting discussion. I think it’s partly a numbers game, and while a lot of CI is very beneficial, by itself, it seems for me anyway, insufficient. However, what I most often hear lately, is that Comprehensible Input is the only thing. Some recommend CI without any (or very little) grammar, or even reading sometimes, even at the beginning stages. I’ve found, that’s not very effective for me; it’s too passive, perhaps. I do need some grammar and to read and write. A little grammar helps me make sense of the sentence construction. (True, concise, simple grammar explanations can be difficult to find; many textbooks instantly ‘deaden’ a language), but our brains tend to seek out the logic also, don’t they? Yes, they also eventually find the patterns, but as an adult, it seems that a little grammar and explicit study helps smooth the way towards comprehension. I’ve found that with French, Spanish and especially Ukrainian. Perhaps our adult minds are judgmental. In other words, we discard/ignore unfamiliar sounds often; we make it ‘white noise.’ I know of people who have lived in a foreign country for a long time, but they’re still not even functional in that language. They did have a fair amount of immersion and some CI, but still, couldn’t get beyond the basics. Yes, I certainly need to hear the TL and to associate the sounds with the syllables or words. But there’s some explicit studying involved. Reading and writing help me consolidate my learning, I guess. Grammar helps give me a framework on which to ‘hang’ the new words. For French, everyday, informal speech is quite different from the written, so I’m taking an online class specifically for that. So that’s specific CI that I want, but generally I have trouble finding CI that I find interesting, so perhaps that’s why I seem less enthusiastic about it.
I share many of your views. I don’t doubt the value of CI. However there can be serious problems with it. When we are young we learn not just by hearing, or reading, but by experiencing which involves sights, sounds, smells and emotions, and these sensations create and strengthen long term memories,
For an adult it can be hard to find suitable CI covering a sufficient range of situations and knowledge domains, once one has gone beyond the beginner and lower intermediate level.
We need exposure to all verb conjugations, and a large amount of grammar items not just the most common. Verb tables and grammar books can provide a useful shortcut if used occasionally.
We also need appropriate vocabulary e.g. gardening, cooking, describing a boiler fault, asking a mechanic to replace the spark plugs in a car and so on. Some classes can focus on very middle class high brow subjects, such as describing a film or a play, or simple activities such as shopping. I often use AI to generate translations, then Google to find real life examples, and these activities create strong memories in my brain. Thus when I think of passerelle, I have this mental image of a lovely foot bridge in a French town, and when I think of sas, citerne and étanche à l’eau I have an image of a German U boat commander who in effect sank his boat by using the toilet when submerged.
I’ve been trying this the past few days. It’s interesting. I have a synthesthetic experience of the words as a sound sculpture that I can run my hands over and notice the features. It cuts out all the guessing and wondering and worrying that goes with my usual attempts to hear French.
I can’t tell yet if it helps but it is pleasant.
I wonder if you’re right about French homophones, etc… I didn’t get far with Spanish in high school, but it seemed once I got past the rapid staccato, I didn’t have much trouble picking out the words.
Apologies if I’ve said this before, however it was a long while before I realised that French has a different timing to English. It is syllable timed, basically each syllable is pronounced clearly, with similar duration. Most romance languages are similar, hence the shotgun nature of Spanish. Almost all Germanic languages are stress timed, meaning we tend to mangle unstressed syllables c.f. record (noun) and record (verb). It took my brain a long while to adapt to the different timing pattern.
Your sound sculpture sounds interesting, I’ll see if I notice that aspect.
I guess this is what Steve Kaufmann meant when he described verbal French as “monotonous.”
I don’t hear French as monotonous – I hear much musical variation – but at the syllable level, assuming it’s a syllable the French pronounce, it follows a metronome more closely than English.
I agree, I find French quite musical, and pleasing on the ear. Of course some speakers are monotonous just as in English. Al Capone didn’t speak like a vicar.
I don’t think it’s a numbers game so much as an effective learning “game”. I dislike the use of the word “game” at all in regards to language learning but I’ll work with it for the purpose of answering.
You can spend 2000 hours listening passively to podcasts, and you will probably pick something up. But if you’re not at a level where passive listening can be understood (that is, you’re below B2), the effectiveness is not much better than the fantasies of learning by talking to yourself in dreams. Your brain filters out information it doesn’t find relevant. That’s why you can spend months or even years in another country and, if you don’t truly try to immerse in the culture, you won’t really acclimate to what people are saying. Your brain filters it out as unimportant. That said, the trick is to make your brain understand it is important.
The best way to do that is to make the language learning a part of your life that replaces something you already did in another language. For example, get your news in Russian or something instead of English. You already wanted the news, and now your brain will grow to understand that it needs to remember the words so you can be informed. An easy one for anime fans is to listen with Japanese subtitles when possible and use LingQ to get the words. It will be painful, grueling and awful at first. It will, there is no way around this. You WILL suffer. But it’s also an incredibly effective way of forcing the information to stick around, at least in comparison to passive listening levels above where you are.
However, I had reached a point when I realized I wasn’t sure what the most optimum path to language acquisition might be and I decided to stop worrying about it.
I don’t know that my current method with LingQ and my notebooks is the best way for me or for anyone. But it is an approach which works for me and I believe will eventually get me to my idea of fluency. To the extent it doesn’t I will adjust my course.
So in that sense I argue that language learning is a numbers game. As humans we are wired to learn languages … if we keep at it long enough.
In April, I promised to post if I can confirm from my own learning experience that Stephen Krashen is right with his “comprehensible input” theory.
Since March, each day I have listened to a 45 minutes’ podcast during a walk through the nearby forest. I sprinkled music between the “Mini Stories” to make it more enjoyable. I saw the spring blossoms and the sun gave me its warm light.
I learned many new words by the listening (and having them looked up in the Lingq dictionary), however I did not switch many yellow words to “learned”. The reason is that all the words are still not 100% in my brain. I cannot tell you how many words I learned, but I can understand Youtube videos much better now than four months ago.
Most impressing for me is that I now can talk to other people. Apparently, listening has led my brain to learn the text patterns, so I can express myself in simple sentences.
My simple rule is do not think, just do. We all over think situations, grammar, etc but how many times do you do that in your native language? Never, I suggest! Yes, you will make mistakes, be the butt of a joke or two, but with each mistake you learn something new. I found the Germans to be very forgiving, not all but 99.99% were, because you were attempting to speak their language. So forget hours studied, words learnt, grammar, etc and utilize what you already know: it is amazing how far you will make yourself understood with so few words and gestures. Good luck.