Yes I’m not really a fan of the word fluency for describing ability in languages. I’m also guilty in the sense that I use my own definition of the word. Proficiency is probably better and would have made more sense in my response to TS.
I don’t put too much into the term fluency. What I mean by fluency is being able to speak the language in a flowing fashion. I think this entails being able to use, modify and combine patterns in the language in real time in a way that is natural. This may not be the accepted definition of it but this is how I think about it. As for your 4 categories I would say:
At least up until this point I’ve only though about this term in terms of output.
Native like but no need to super eloquent. I mean what is considered “good” here?
(and 4) General in the sense that you are able to explain your thoughts (in the way I described earlier) in any situation. Most people can’t speak in detail about any topic in physics with accurate terminology but they can still describe it with their own words.
I’m obviously in the massive immersion camp and speaking early just doesn’t compute for me. Really interested to hear your thoughts.
I also love massive immersion approaches like AJATT, MIA, or (more recently) Refold, but I’m not an input/immersion “purist”. .I’ve adopted more of a flexible Mixed Martial Arts approach to second language acquisition (SLA). In other words, I choose my mix of approaches depending on situational factors (goals, time and budget constraints, etc.).
Regarding the controversy “speaking early or speaking later?”
I’m quite relaxed about it. Speaking earlier or later doesn’t matter too much in the long run as long as you absorb enough understandable content. So, understandable content is a must, speaking early isn’t!
Fluency vs proficiency
I agree. It s probably better to use the concept of proficiency as the main category and (oral) fluency, i.e. speaking, as one of its dimensions.
Reg. the different dimensions of “proficiency”
My main concepts in this context are:
a) Communication as a mechanism that pops up (“emerges”) when people try to coordinate their behavior. This replaces or generalizes the sender-receiver model of communication that is still useful for simpler processes (i.e. technical, plant-based, or animal communication), but not for human communication.
For some background information reg. this position, see:
b) Various media (forms) processed in communication processes:
Electronic forms (digital text, audio, photos, drawings, video, etc. or a combination of these media)
c) Culture
As a reservoir (schemas, values, etc.) for human communication processes.
Proficiency
I think of it as communicative skill level (beginner, intermediate, advanced, and native-like).
But, of course, you could add more distinctions like “low, medium, high” (see: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/e7/97/91e7979f10a4efb50628dbd69eac457e.png) or merge some distinctions (low/high, advanced and native = advanced or proficient), etc.
The combination of 1b)/1c) and 2) to distinguish different dimensions of proficiency represented as axes in a multidimensional coordinate system. That is:
para- / nonverbal proficiency
oral (verbal) proficiency depending on the medium (oral eye-to-eye, oral-electronic)
listening proficiency depending on the medium (oral eye-to-eye, oral-electronic)
reading proficiency depending on the medium (handwritten, printed, electronic)
writing proficiency depending on the medium (handwritten, printed, electronic)
cultural proficiency (cultural awareness/reflexivity)
Reg. para- / nonverbal and oral = verbal proficiency
IMO, these two dimensions determine the level of “fluency,” but one could also add listening and cultural proficiency since all four dimensions are important in any oral interaction.
So, we can distinguish the following fluency levels:
Beginner fluency, for example as a “phrasebook parrot”, prepared presentations, etc.
Intermediate = conversational fluency: the ability to talk freely about more or less simple and/or domain-specific everyday topics with many para- /nonverbal, verbal, and cultural weaknesses
Advanced fluency: the ability to speak freely about more complicated and cross-domain topics with fewer para/nonverbal, verbal, and cultural weaknesses
Native-like fluency: the ability to converse freely on more complicated and cross-domain topics with para/nonverbal, verbal, and cultural skills approaching those of a competent native speaker in the TL
“Most people can’t speak in detail about any topic in physics with accurate terminology but they can still describe it with their own words.”
Yes, our modern society (since 1750-1830) is characterized by the formation of different “domains” (politics, science, sports, mass media, economy, etc.) with their own sub-domains (and sub-sub… domains), their own rationality, their own expertise, and their own (expert) jargon. Therefore, even native speakers are often quite helpless when it comes to the details in these (sub-, sub-sub-, etc.) domains.
Okay, we can use everyday language patterns to talk about it, but that is often extremely superficial:
Example 1: A few years ago, when I was talking to a German nurse about being a software developer, she said, “Ah, that’s boring. All you do is stare at a monitor, type, and move a mouse.” I wasn’t able to tell her that it’s intellectually challenging/fascinating work that involves all kinds of skills: Math, logic, design, modeling, programming, testing, etc. So this communication between two native German speakers was over in about 2 minutes. We then preferred to talk about simpler things like “Why are modern men such wussies?”, because it’s always a good idea to make the nurse who treats you happy
Example 2: I can talk for hours in German or English about (professional) basketball because as a teenager I wanted to become a professional player myself. But, if you ask me something about “synchronized swimming”, for example, I’m completely helpless. I’d probably say something like, “Isn’t that a sport with a group of young ladies doing funny moves in a pool?” In other words: When it comes to “synchronized swimming” I’ve no clue what I’m talking about. So, I’d prefer to say nothing about it, i.e. my sentence about this sport is existing non-existing
Maybe this blog post by Benny Lewis reg. “fluency” is also Interesting in this context:
Benny’s 400-600 h range to reach an “oral” B2 level is realistic (esp. for more experienced language learners), I’d say. But, for “hard-core” languages, at least from an Indo-European perspective, like Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc. his estimate is probably too optimistic.
Of course, this covers only the oral dimension. If learners also want to write well in their TL, especially in hardcore languages, Benny’s estimate quickly collapses.
Thanks for the answer Peter. Interesting stuff. I’ve never read about language learning at an academic level so this was certainly next level. (Btw. knowing myself how awesome programming is. Your first example felt… ugh)
Det kanske kunde vara en idé att svara på svenska, även efter de har bytt till engelska?
Sen kan du säkert hitta saker på svenska som du tycker om. Det finns ju gott om filmer, TV-serier och böcker på svenska.
Om du har några preferenser så kan jag komma med lite tips om du vill? Alltså typ action, drama, sci-fi o.s.v.
Själv tycker jag om dokumentärer. Dels i allmänhet, men även när det kommer till språkinlärning. Om en dokumentär är välgjord så håller den ju ditt intresse uppe, samtidigt som att det ofta talas lite långsammare i en dokumentärfilm, vilket ju gör att man hinner hänga med på ett bra sätt.
Och tro det eller ej, men vi svenskar är bra på att göra dokumentärer
SVT har en massa innehåll på sin hemsida. Om du söker på SVTplay så bör du kunna scrolla fram till saker som du är intresserad av
För övrigt så förstår jag ditt dilemma. Jag har dels varit mycket i Danmark, och dels haft en dansk flickvän.
Så jag har pratat mycket engelska
Tack så mycket for dit svar.
Jah kanske kunde det vara en god ide. Jag är nu inta helt bra nok til svenska endnu. Så det kändes ganske konstigt. Problemat är jeg inta prater med nogla ud overa på arbejdat. Og der skal det væra snabt og präsist. Men jag tänker at jeg snart skulla bliva dygtig nok. Ellers måsta jag betale for Italki lektioner.
Jeg har köbt 2 Svenska fantasy böger, lige nu läsar jag “Bara den svageste överlever”. Och det er trevligt!
Jeg tittar også på Emil i Lönneberg. og gillar den kanske mycket.
Känder godt SVT Play. Men har inte kunna finde särligt meget som jeg gillade. Kanske jeg er for “picky”.
Vis du känder nogle gode fantasy serier ville jeg blive nöj!
I’m tempted to learn Swedish every time I watch a great Ingmar Bergman film. For such a small country, it has produced an incredible number of great films… Might try exploring that realm if your a cinephile.
Honestly, the quality of the movies available in a given language are what keep me going in a language. It would be nearly impossible for me to try learning a language if there wasn’t great art to dig into. Which, there is for Swedish…
I do agree with you. Not with not liking Swedish language but not liking a certain language even if you do love the people, the place, and everything in the area. I think it’s not actually about not liking it. I think it’s more of finding it a bit difficult for your tongue to adjust to. Well, I think you should convince yourself with reasons why it’s interesting and now with why you are uncomfortable in it. I think, that way, you will be more eager to learn it. It will also make the learning easier. I mean, mind conditioning really works.
Yeah, and it’s really not that I hate Swedish. Just that it’s a lot less interesting the the languge I’m already learning. So it often loses in priority.
But I agree finding a good reason is still what can keep me going.
I agree, a part of it is conditioning and I do think that it has something to do with how much interested you are in learning a certain language or anything in general.
True I think it’s all about the mindset in learning, The thing is there alot of sites that allow you to translate their homepage to the language that you speak. for example at https://gamble.jp/
the site is in japanese tho it can be translated into english if you’re having a hard time learning…You can also use language translator apps but I do not think that would be a more accurate solution…
Hello, I understand you very well. Sometimes it is challenging to learn a language when there is such a need. It is easiest to learn it for fun, when you want and for as long as you want, but progress is unlikely to be fast.
I myself go to a chinese class (https://www.chineseonlinecourses.com/), and I can say that I generally enjoy doing it, but it has cost me a certain amount of effort:
I chose a 1x1 class with a teacher. In that case, it’s hard not to do the assignment, and there’s a lot more control.
Introducing a system of rewards. Every time I reward myself for a correctly done thing or difficult material. It can be a tasty biscuit or something like that.
I set goals. It feels good to achieve a goal, and it pushes me forward.
I hope I have helped you, just as I once helped myself
Hey, yeah I was thinking of getting an Italki teacher.
Could be good both to have some consistency and some goals.
also I’m all in for tasty biscuets as reward.
Hi. I’ve lived in Sweden for nearly 10 years and have a fair amount of fluency and I still have some Swedes switch to English at the slightest mistake or even if I say a word with too much of an American accent. I’ve had to just accept that this is unavoidable here and it’s actually either politeness on their part (wanting to switch to a language they think we’d have a smoother time communicating in) or because they are eager to practice their English. It can be tiring to think they are switching because I’ve made some mistake, but I’ve had to accept such thoughts are draining and unproductive.
For speaking practice: find some friends who will stick in Swedish with you for as long as you want. I have a handful of friends like this but other friends I expect to switch back and forth. If it’s within your budget, use a tutor in Italki or one you find through LingQ. This is a person who is paid to stick in Swedish with you and correct your mistakes, and I’ve gotten a ton of benefit from just one hour a week. I used to go to language exchanges from Meetup, but stopped after Corona started. There were also språkcafeer through the Stockholm library system which were quite good for a beginner level. I find a 1:1 tutor a much better use of my time and worth the money in comparison.
The zoning out while listening and reading: you’re probably getting tired of it. Learning any new language can be draining, especially when you find your mistakes and knowledge gaps frustrating. Practice for shorter intervals daily, and decide an amount after which you’re “done” for the day and can stop if you don’t feel like continuing. Burning out on the process will just slow you down in the long run.
Also tip on content: the library system can be a great source of ebooks which can be imported into LingQ with a third party tool support and epub ebooks from Bokus or Adlibris are usually DRM free can can be imported basically directly. And there’s plenty of free video content on SVT Play and Öppet Arkiv.
Ah thanks man! some good advices there.
Really need to figure out how to use the Libary system.
Only just got my Personnummar, but still missing my ID-cart.
Unfortunately I live in a super small town, so there isn’t any exchanges going on here as far as I am aware of. Haven’t checked it out too much as everything is closed down right now anyways.
But hope once corona stops I can get out and talk more to people, and hopefully in Swedish.
I’ve really considered an Italki teacher. They are a bit on the expensive side of my budget for now, but I think once a week should be okay.
Magn0733 This thread is a bit old but it seems to remain alive so I’ll give you my two cents in case it’s helpful. If you have already figured this out or moved on, feel free to disregard my reply.
To my mind, there are two simple strategies that you may want to implement. I can summarize them as follows:
1- Concentrate on content (suggestions below)
2- Keep it small, no, really, very small
For the first point: forget about the language, it is the content that should be interesting. Even if you loved the language, you’d get discouraged after some time studying if you can’t find interesting content. So, just find content that interests you and that happens to be in Swedish. And don’t read much, just watch videos about topics that interest you. Also keep it small, about 15 minutes a day. Although you don’t like the language, you have a big advantage in that you can expect to understand spoken material at least partially because of the similarity to your native language. Find context-rich context and that’ll help you. I know you find it hard to find that kind of content, so I would advise you to watch:
Tutorials about hobbies you feel passionate about. Even better if they are physical activities. Watching one short video about something you enjoy should be a breeze. If you’re anything like me, you won’t even mind if it’s a tutorial about something you already know how to do because it’s always good to go back to basics and to get some new perspective. Examples include sports, exercise, dance, home improvement, travel, languages (Russian) or life in Russia, …
Of course, films/TV series, when you get to a high enough level for that, never mind if originally Swedish or translated. Something you like watching but feel a bit guilty about because it’s a bit of a waste of time. Because they’re in Swedish you’re suddenly allowed to watch them. If you like anime, e.g. that’s a very good content because it tends to be available in many languages and it’s not hard to understand (except in the original Japanese). Again, don’t feel compelled to watch a lot, 15 minutes a day is enough.
As you watch, look up some words you don’t understand and brush up on grammar points that are unclear. Don’t worry if you only understand a part, the context will help you and you’ll be getting better. You can do some shadowing from time to time to improve your pronunciation.
With just that you’ll be improving and it won’t feel like a chore. Sure you wouldn’t learn as fast as if you devoted more time but you don’t seem to be in a hurry.
You can set apart some time for language learning, say one hour or hour and a half. Watch a video in Swedish and then learn some Russian for the rest of the time. That’ll also motivate you because it’ll allow you to go on learning Russian. Russian would be the reward for your time learning Swedish (in Psychology we call this “Premack’s principle”)*.
I wish you success in both Swedish and Russian
Hi Ftornay. Thank you, that’s some really good advice there! And I think I’ve been struggling because I’ve been doing a bit the opposite of what you suggest. Usually I do 6000 words of Russian then my Anki and then I do 4 lessons of Swedish Usually some news and short texts.
But I think it would be good to use Russian as the reward and do the Swedish first. It’s also a really good idea to check out some Swedes in Russia!
And I also think you’re right in keeping it super small. Maybe even smaller than it is now and then be consisten.
As you say finding a hobby tutorial and watching that is a piece of cake and I can definitely do that.
To be honest, right now I’m a bit fed up in films/series. I’ve already watched so much stuff in Russian that I’ve found as well in Swedish, but I haven’t had the will to watch pokemon for the second time when I just did so in Russian.
So I think Youtube will be a great help for my Swedish and then keep Russian to the series.
Again thanks for the reply, and it’s never too late.
I watch Youtube for my Korean. I find it with the Korean subtitles. Sometimes, the video shows words on it. I can look up the words and have fun watching the video.
Kanske jeg er for “picky”.
Just that it’s a lot less interesting the the languge I’m already learning. So it often loses in priority.