How Much did You Push Yourself? And for How Long?

Open Forum
21

David,

Germans speak excellent English and most of the time they like to practice it with foreigners who are struggling with their German. You hardly get inputs in German; big disadvantage. How was it in France? Could French people switch to English easily?

The kind of German Germans get to speak in day-to-day life I do not think so you can be proficient in reading with that etc. In sum, extra efforts on your own have to be spent in any case, there are no two ways about it.

But again I have no clue about your social skills so I am just speculating in regards to your language learning methods.

22

Are there books, articles, news, podcasts, movies, etc. that you like to listen in your native language or one of the other languages you can speak? Or are you just more a people person and need that engagement and donā€™t typically read or watch or listen to anything?

If you have some interests perhaps there are some sources of input I or someone else can recommend.

For me itā€™s rather easyā€¦Iā€™m interested in just about anything new or that I already have an interest in. I like to read. I like to read news on various topics. I love movies and tv shows.

Loving to read imo is one of the most important things in acquiring new knowledge. Whether it is in learning a language or just learning and finding out about whatā€™s going on in the world. So hopefully there IS something you you find of interest to read, or watch, or listen, otherwise your progress may always feel unsatisfactory, unless you ultimately get to live in Germany and acquire it as youā€™ve done with the other languages.

23

@asad: yes, I know Germans like to speak English, just tell them your English is awful and you donā€™t know it very well. And they can choose between your native language or your basic German. :smiley:
Then ask them, in German, about some of their words, why they are like that, if the sound is correct BUT with fun, in a casual way without stress or any exigence in particular, etc. People like to explain a lot about their culture and they naturally like to help for explaining things about their cultural stuff or related life-to-life stuff.

With a French? I donā€™t think Iā€™ve ever spoken in English once. Most of the time they spoke in French even if I didnā€™t understand anything. The good thing is that when you tell them to slow down because you donā€™t understand they repeat yes and then they talk at the same speed as before with the same words. :DD
Itā€™s a good challenge but it was worth it and I never complained.

I believe that you living in Germany can engage with hundreds of different topics they like. Beer, food, football, cars and so on. But you can talk with lots of immigrants that were born in Germany as well. For example, in France I talked a lot with Algerians, Tunisians and Turkish. All of them had perfect French because they were natives but with different origins. Same in England with Turkish, Indians and others.

You can always go in a lot of immigrant places where they teach German for free and engage with lots of other people. Or you can write a lot of requests for free language exchanges offering 1 hour of your language with 1 hour of their language. So you can meet a different person every day.

Itā€™s true that you always have to make some effort studying the language at home but itā€™s a total different beast. Because you do 30 minutes at home and then you talk for hours outside without any effort and any cost! And as soon as you find a job you basically engage 8 hours a day!

For me, itā€™s easy, as soon as I hear someone talking, the way they talk or the expression they use, I copy them. Like a baby, you know, when babies start to repeat and repeat the same word by curiosity and by fun.
You learn an expression from one person and the day after you can use the same expression with another and so on. Without thinking about it. You just get it.

But watching videos is just boring, I canā€™t ask anything to a video :smiley:

24

Thanks @eric: the problem is that maybe Iā€™m not so young anymore and Iā€™ve lost interest in most of the things. Not because I donā€™t consider them ā€œusefulā€ but itā€™s because they just donā€™t interest me anymore. I donā€™t care about music for example. I can listen something but I donā€™t really care. My Music app is basically empty.

Yes, I still watch some movies but less and less nowadays. For example, I like sci-fi (which is my main topic) but I havenā€™t watched Dune yet, or Foundation (and I read all the Asimov books ages ago) and so on. Yes, they are there in the watchlist but I donā€™t have the ā€œexcitementā€ of a teenager anymore, I can wait to watch them or I might not watch them at all anymore. Yes, I will watch Matrix 4 but in English, not in German for sure. The only few movies and series left that I like are in English native language.

Yes, I still read some news but not so much anymore because once you understand the paradigm of those things at the end they always repeat themselves. There is nothing new to learn or not so much, just variations of the same things.

But yes, Iā€™m reading some news in German but I canā€™t go further than a couple of articles. And maybe I shouldnā€™t even because the level could be too difficult.
I have reduced my German sources on Feedly at the minimum to leave only the ones that really interest me more. But I donā€™t find anything exciting.

I donā€™t consider myself a people person. Iā€™m both introvert and extrovert but for learning is a lot easier to copy others and ask, copy and ask and progress. Usually lots of one-to-one bits of conversations, free exchanges, working with colleagues and customers, etc.

I donā€™t listen to podcasts anymore. Movies and series in German are too difficult for now and the only one that I could rewatch in native language could be ā€œDie kinder vom bahnhof zooā€.

What I was thinking right now is to completely change subject and read stories. Simple stories. Maybe some true krimi or real stories but not biographies anymore.

I say simple stories because my level is simple BUT the idea that Iā€™m picturing now is exactly that.

Now Iā€™m giving you some more difficult example, like ā€œDie kinder vom bahnhof zooā€ or Kafka ā€œThe Metamorphosisā€ which I find genius or ā€œThe little Princeā€ which Iā€™ve just read again in French but itā€™s a simple story although very engaging.

I donā€™t know, I think I have to find stories that keep me interested so that I can spend more time reading without feeling it as an effort.
Then I have no idea about listening but one thing at a time.

25

If you want to try going back to ā€œsimpleā€ and not childlike, and if you never checked them out, you could look at the Dino lernt Deutsch series. They are really a great length, and adult enough to not be boring (at least for me).

If you buy the books individually they are cheap so you test one out and bail on the series if it doesnā€™t seem all that greatā€¦The first book may be a little too simple. They gradually get a little harder. They are listed as A1/A2. Iā€™d say closer to the A2-ish side. Which possibly may be too simple for you based on your known word count, but maybe not? I like the books because each book takes place in a different German speaking city except the one that takes place in Palermo and so they throw in some local thingsā€¦certain areas of the city or a little local dialect.

You should be able to import into LingQ too.

He also has a series in the B1/B2 range:

Iā€™ve only read part of the first one. I think I would like them. My biggest complaint is the chapters are super short so it feels a little tedious to use with LingQ, but maybe you would enjoy them.

He also has a B2/A1 set of books. Iā€™ve not read these at all:

Aside from that maybe look into some ā€œyoung adultā€ type books and import them into LingQ? Here it gets trickier, if you have issues importing kindle books into LingQ (if you canā€™t find a non DRM).

26

@eric: thanks for the tips. Some of the Dino lernt Deutsch are on Amazon as well. Iā€™ve put some of those type of books on my wish-list and I think Iā€™ll start from them to see how it goes. I can import from kindle to LingQ now if books arenā€™t too DRM locked I guess. For now I havenā€™t found any problem.

Harry Potter would be fantasy and I donā€™t like the genre, I think I have to go on real stories. Some crime or unsolved mystery but real, or a story very well written, simple but effective. I have to try until I find more and more the topic that could make me want to read more. Which is not so easy unfortunately.

I know those podcasts and videos you mentioned. Iā€™ve subscribed a bunch of those type of content but I watch them because ā€œI shouldā€. I never do it because I like them.

27

I did 3-4 hours every night for the first four months with Russian. Then I burned out. Month five and month six I was able to do an hour or an hour and a half and sometimes I lost interest for a couple days and had to come back to it.

My conclusion is that for me although I can use a short timespan (e.g. a six month challenge) in order to motivate me to put in a lot of effort, I canā€™t sustain it psychologically indefinitely. Therefore I think I need to complete the language by just using it for several months. i.e. by watching content.

But I donā€™t know to be honest. My best L2 (Spanish) is burned into my memory and itā€™s a natural part of me now and I donā€™t remember how/when/what I did to go from kind of understanding to being fluent in it. So who knows.

28

xxdb;
I did more intensive study for German language exceeding over 6-10 hours a day spanning over months.
I never felt burned out or faced any symptoms closer to it.
Maybe living in your target country is a great help ?? You can use in real life whatever you are trying to learn. There is this practical need for learning a language that keeps you moving forward with the same intensity. Depends on your language learning method? Reviewing words with Anki is very mentally exhausting than say reading graded readers/listening to easy materials?

29

Thanks @xxdb for sharing your experience. Well, 4 months is a very good period considering that is at the beginning of the language and it requires a lot of effort. Even more doing it at night, at the end of the day. But you were able to slow down the hours but not stopping learning it so overall it was a good performance if you achieved the results you wanted to achieve.

30

@Eric: just to let you know, Iā€™ve started today with the Dino lernt Deutsch series. I bought the first 4 books and Iā€™ve eliminate all the English parts so to import them on LingQ.

Iā€™m changing the way Iā€™m reading or studying.
I have to say that Iā€™ve noticed that to make it effective I have to read slow, paying attention, writing something. I was wondering if I have ADHD never diagnostic. Nobody even new what it was when I was a kid. But I struggle to keep the attention, even to look very well at the words.

Anyway, thatā€™s another topic.
I will start with this series working through it in a different way. Slower and with more precision.

31

@David -re: Dino and ADHD

Iā€™m certainly no doctor, but it does sound like you may have trouble focusing or easily getting bored with things. No idea on whether that is ADHD, but it does make things difficult. I wouldnā€™t worry about it too muchā€¦maybe you just need shorter sessions? Read for 5-10 min. Do something else. Come back again whenever and read for 5-10 min. Honestly, that has been my entire process for the most part. My main problem is I fall asleep after reading for 5-10 min =D. I probably get in at most 15-20 min of reading a day and probably less than that and I feel Iā€™ve made excellent progress. (Slow progress for some I guessā€¦Iā€™m working on a few years). Iā€™m in no hurry. Iā€™ve decided itā€™s going to take as long as it takes and Iā€™ll just enjoy the ride.

The thing thatā€™s great about LingQ is you can easily switch to something new to look at when you get bored. At times Iā€™ll just import an articleā€¦news, wikipedia article of the day, or something else and just read a small portion of it. Just to get some new vocabulary and a basic idea of the article. No pressure to finish the darn thingā€¦especially if itā€™s not of huge interest, but it is a new exposure and may help with words you are trying to learn.

I think some content does deserve a slower pace as youā€™re looking to do. I wouldnā€™t make it tedious, but just try to understand and enjoy the storyā€¦The Dino series for your level should be mostly accessible I think without a lot of need for lookup. It may be a nice ā€œlevel checkā€ to see where you are.

Not sure if you drive, but maybe look at getting the audiobooks too if you are enjoying the stories. The author reads them slowly (not ridiculously slow) and so they are good listening practice. If you find it too slow, you can always bump the speed a few notches. Towards the last couple of books I had bumped up the speed a bit trying to get used to a quicker natural pace.

Good luck!. Hopefully you enjoy the stories. The chapters and the books themselves are short enough that you can get through them rather quickly.

32

During Steveā€™s (first) 90 Day Challenge, from January-March 2014, I did Spanish at least 1.5 hours per day and at least 3 hours per day on the weekend. Made a huge breakthrough and my biggest turning point. It made a true believer our of me. I went for a little longer after that then resumed for a month or two later that year, then again the the following year. Iā€™m in a cycle now which I will wrap up by yearā€™s end and be ā€œdoneā€ with Spanish, 1300 hours nearly 8 years later.

33

Thank you. Yes, Iā€™m definitely organizing myself in a complete different way in order to increase the time I can be exposed to the language. Pushing for a period of time could be very useful to make that necessary step to better understand and use the language for eventually more interesting things.

I have no idea about the time Iā€™ve spent learning this language, not even when Iā€™ve started Itā€™s incredible that you tracked the time for 8 years. Iā€™ve been starting to do that now so to be more precise about what Iā€™m doing and face the truth that I should do a lot more and better!

34

Thanks. I estimate the Spanish I took in school to be between 200 and 400 ours, so overall I estimate my Spanish study time to be between 1500 and 1700 hours. Started doing this because it was yet another statistic to be able to track, along with those at LingQ. However, the bigger reason was that I wanted to see where along the learning curve I was and/or how close to ā€œthe endā€ I was. The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) estimates 23-24 weeks of study (at 40 horus per week between class and homework) for a Category 1 langauge like Spanish. So, I needed between 920 and 960 hours. Being at an intermediate level can be ā€œa long, long roadā€ to use Master Steveā€™s phrase, so I wanted something to mark my travels along it.

35

Yeah lingQ is much less mentally taxing. Itā€™s true.

36

Part of the issue is motivational. I knew more or less that my method would work for French because I had already done it for Spanish and both French and Spanish are super close to English in the grand scheme of things.
With Russian it was a whole different ballgame. You hear conflicting stories about how hard it is and I also had no success with learning any ā€œdistantā€ languages from English previously.
So I wasnā€™t even sure it would work. And doing several hours a night of something that youā€™re not really seeing progress is hard. (Measuring progress by listening to youtube with no subtitles and understand nothing even after 2 months of solid effort). What made it more difficult to keep going was that with French I could see almost linear progress taking place. I could understand a little right off the bat and after one or two months I could understand a bit more.
With Russian there appeared to be a delay and a threshold.
The good news now, however, is that I now have a successful experience with a distant-from-english language that is rated ā€œdifficultā€. Given that the understanding ā€œprogressionā€ is technically following the same path as french did (which was my recent experience) I am confident that my technique works and itā€™s just more grind till I hit completion.

My theory is both wrong and right as a takeaway.
I expected that it should be possible to learn any language to intermediate in six months if you focused purely on listening.
I reckoned that the FSI was wrong and that the 2,200 hours for a ā€œdifficultā€ language was out to lunch.
In the end I think while the FSI is slightly wrong, theyā€™re not really wrong. I estimate in reality that you can get to unaided comprehension in about 1,000 hours of listening practice. Iā€™m currently somewhere between 300 and 400 hours. I suspect at the end of my second 6 month challenge Iā€™ll be somewhere around 600-800 hours so Iā€™ll be able to give a more definitive answer.

What I can say though, is that Iā€™m now past the solid grind stage and I can understand enough that I can now watch engaging content and understand enough of it to be able to stay focused so Iā€™m technically already ā€œusingā€ it. So yeah. Anyhow, long ramble.

37

One thing I can say is that maybe your metric is too one dimensional.
My scale is laddered in that I am gradually trying to increase the comprehension difficulty.
Specifically I aim to understand in a timeline in this order:
TPRS language teacher podcasts on youtube.
Free spoken limited vocabulary language teachers on youtube.
Slowly spoken native speakers discussing random topics but as ā€œcomprehension practiceā€.
Slowly spoken News.
Regularly spoken News.
Free spoken full vocabulary native language podcasters on youtube.
Free spoken SLANG native language podcasters on youtube.
Netflix shows and TV movies.

In my opinion this is a laddered progression. Currently Iā€™m somewhere bouncing around slowly spoken native speakers discussing random topics as ā€œcomprehension practiceā€ and slowly spoken news whereas the higher levels are currently too difficult.
If I can get to free spoken slang native podcasters as far as Iā€™m concerned Iā€™m fluent.

38

So hereā€™s an interesting point:
You said ā€œyou have trouble learning words that are not similar to those of your own languageā€ [cognates] and that ā€œeveryone doesā€.

Hereā€™s my 2c on this:
I suspect that (like I did with French and Spanish), almost everybody concentrates on the cognates because they are very easy to learn and ignores the non-cognates because they are literally painful to learn. That is not so much a drawback in e.g. Spanish or French because there are enough cognates that not only do you make rapid progress with them but the non-cognates donā€™t really impact your understanding. Because they are the minortiy.

Thatā€™s a mistake IMO and itā€™s necessary to develop a specific technique for crunching the non-cognates into memory.

In Russian for example, the first 3-5,000 words (which are the minimum to understand reasonably well) have less than 5% cognates.

In other words, almost every single word I had to learn was mind numbingly hard to get to stick. That alone was almost enough to make me want to give up.

I found that I was having something like 10% of the success rate of remembering the majority of the russian base-words compared with 80-90% of the french words for the same amount of effort. I had to come up with a variety of different strategies to make them stick from learning them in small groups at a time to repeating them out loud to myself over and over to just clicking on each sentence in lingq five times in a row. It was brutal like seriously brutal. But I can say in the end it actually does work. It is possible to learn non-cognates it just takes way more effort.

My 2c for one major difference between easy languages and ā€œhardā€ languages.

39

Yeah 100%. This is essentially what I do too: ladder up but donā€™t try from too many rungs higher up on the comprehension ladder.

40

Yeah, itā€™s not that I have real trouble but that I probably didnā€™t focus on those and subconsciously my brain focused on the easiest as you said. Now that Iā€™ve been thinking about this all process and watched the statistics Iā€™ve realized I need to change method to focus more on the ā€œlearnt lingqsā€ and this is what Iā€™m doing now. Step by step though.