Hours of speaking required

I know there is no single concrete answer to this but regardless I am curious to hear anecdotal evidence from fellow LingQers who have tracked their speaking practice.

For those who have reached a high level of comprehension (say anything beyond advanced 1) how many hours of dedicated speaking practice did you require to ‘unlock’ your passive vocabulary? was there a certain threshold in which things ‘clicked’ and speaking became much more fluid? did you focus mainly on working one on one with tutors or more casually with language exchange partners? what was your overall strategy if you had one?

I know Steve is famous for saying “to speak well you have to speak a lot”

I would love to narrow in on what ‘a lot’ actually could mean as a numerical value, I think it could give me and others a good goal to aim for!

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around 160 hours for roughly c1 level

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Is this your personal experience? Would love to hear a little more about your journey etc

This overview I saw on the forum once. So far it has roughly matched for me for both Japanese (32k words known and somwhere around B2) , and French (67k words on lingq known and somewhere between C1 and C2). Although I had done both in classroom setting as well, but more than 10 years ago.

I did dedicated speaking practice french for about two years on Italki, also with maybe 10 to 20 hours of talking to myself - just making imaginary ted-talks , presentations etc… just free flow and just write down quickly any expressions I want to look up afterwards. those expressions, key words I then put into anki decks. I did the same for any key words I wanted to remember during my italki conversation classes.

I have heard others mention that it has more or less matched for them as well.

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A few points.

Cicero, one of Rome’s greatest public speakers [106 BC to 43 BC] had a different perspective on the “speak a lot” approach. He pointed out that as well as speaking you should write as much as possible. In “De Oratore” Cicero had the orator Crassus explain that while speaking ex tempore, off-the-cuff, has some value and builds confidence, it often just leads people to talk a lot while saying nothing of substance! Cicero concludes therefore that writing is “the most effective and fruitful practice of all” and your writing habits can then lead to fluent speech.

Writing is very hard work but LynxAI on LingQ is certainly now useful in developing your output skills, and I do think that writing can be neglected in the “rush to speak”.

You will perhaps have seen recommendations by both Luca Lampariello and Olly Richards to use Langua? That is a programme that is available 24/7, and gives you a transcript and feedback on your conversation with a reasonably lifelike robot. In comparison with paying a professional tutor or attending classes, online or face-to-face, it works out to be very cost-effective.

Langua on the one hand is perhaps overly positive about your faltering ability to speak, but at least that is supportive at any level. However, you need to get used to the system, as it is a bit disorienting at first, and there often seem to be glitches. If you are like most of us and you aspire to “perfectionism” you can be easily disheartened at first with Langua when looking at a transcript of all your stammering “ums” and “ahs” and are often ready to kick yourself looking back at all the “unforced errors”, particularly of grammar. But then it is AI - so better to make your mistakes with such a device than, embarrassingly, with a real person?

Talking to yourself can be helpful, particularly if you are rehearsing phrases, “chunks” and even Boris Shekhtman “islands” you might want to use in conversations. But you are unlikely to be correcting your own mistakes, until perhaps Professor Krashen’s “monitor hypothesis” kicks in to “check, correct and polish” your language…

Some people find having a tandem partner helpful, but personally I have found the 50/50 aspect somewhat distracting, getting the appropriate compatability of interests is often quite difficult, and it is certainly too easy to relapse into banal “small talk”. Cicero’s warning definitely comes to mind here!

The advantage of being in a class is that fellow classmates are generally extremely supportive and never criticise your inevitable clumsiness when speaking. Depending on the class teacher you either get severe corrections, leading sometimes to “paralysis”, or you get no corrections at all on either spoken or written work, so a lot depends on choosing a teacher and an institution. And of course with a sizeable group and not wishing to monopolise the conversation you actually get very little speaking time.

italki is something I would definitely recommend, and again it depends on the teacher and how you approach the interaction, italki is one-on-one and with nowhere to hide! How best to use italki or other similar online systems would probably require a complete discussion all by itself, but inevitably you will need to pay at a professional level, so this is not necessarily a cheap option.

My advice is to use a combination of all such methods to speak well, as they all have their advantages and disadvantages. And if you happen to come across a native speaker, or indeed be in the country where your target language is spoken, take absolutely every opportunity to prolong any conversations that you are engaged in…!

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As you say, it is challenging to come up with an answer for this. Much will depend on what you have done besides speaking, and also what your definition is for an endpoint. I expect B2 level speaking (like this guy) should be a sufficient to say vocabulary is unlocked, so I’ll start there.

I have two anecdotes to share.

In my case with Japanese, I learned in a college class where we spoke from day 1, and had a 1 hour discussion classes 5 days a week (shared speaking time with other students). After 3 semesters (240 hrs of those group discussion classes+all of the corresponding study) I would self assess I arrived in Japan for my semester abroad able speak at a B1 level per this chart. By the end of that semester abroad I expect I spoke at a B2 level, after 300-500 more hours of conversation and being surrounded by the language. So, maybe somewhere between 500-750 of conversation hours? Keep in mind this was before streaming, so my these same hours formed much of my input as well.

For Spanish, I’ve learned via a input heavy method (LingQ+), and have done 3rd party tests (italki). I was first assessed at B1-B2 (speaking) after 70 hours of conversation (and 1,562,000 words read, 321 hrs listened, 4,906 words written). I was later assessed at B2 after 178 hours of conversation (w 4M words read, 949 hrs listened, 20,400 words written.) I would have crossed the border somewhere between 128 hours (prior test) and 178 hours. This is quite a different method than the Japanese, as you can see. I think the speaking would have gotten to B2 more quickly had I put a little more emphasis on writing and speaking earlier, but I was kind of cruising along racking up input.

So somewhere between 70 and 750 hours? It may be that I am not that good at this. :joy:

Anyway, YMMV a LOT!

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After the first week at my new woorkplace as a migrant. Everyone else was migrant too but everyone spoke the target language at some level. And I learnt the language in school.

That first week kicked my confidence off for ever. So, that’s 56 hours, let’s say strong B1. After the 2nd week in the job: B2.

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What is your native language and target language?

How many years did you study your target language in school before this experience?

Congratulations on your success!

I came across this case of a guy (whosdamike) learning Thai, and thought it was relevant to this post. You can see all his updates here.

He counts total hours with the language, and per his posts he had the following experience:

  • 2000 total hrs / 70 hrs of conversation practice and called himself “low conversational”
  • 2600/150 : “I am able to convey my thoughts and have real conversations”
  • 3000/>250: " I’m still not nearly as fluid or natural or eloquent as I am in English, but it is to the point where I can handle logistics, joke around, gossip, talk shit, discuss current events, … A serious doctor appointment or consulting a lawyer would be examples of cases where I’d like the option to fall back on English if needed,"

He does post a video of his conversation with his teacher so you can see him speaking.

So, this is another anecdote with a distant language from English.