This attitude is honestly just Bs to me. It is always putting something against something else without considering the whole picture to sell people a mediocre result.
Yes, it is true that if we worry about mistakes we get stuck and not communicate. So it is better speak and write with mistakes rather than be immobilised. However, this is only one side of the story. Because the next step would be going beyond that initial drive, and improve the language to become better and better at it.
As humans, good or bad, we judge people. I don’t want to go into the psychological details about these attitudes, but we give different metrics to people that write or speak properly, compared to others.
We definitely recognise the effort when they speak and write correctly in our own native language, because unconsciously, we know they put a lot of effort into learning our own culture. The better they are, higher is the respect we give them.
The good part with LingQ is that we can keep improving following the input method. But if we want to bring a language to the next level, it is surely not enough.
Writing involves another type of knowledge, and grammar is a big part of it, plus spelling, styles, nuances, and so on. It is probably a lot of work as well, depending, as usual, on the goals we have.
There is certainly a debate to be had here, because I do not think you are being entirely fair to Krashen or Kaufmann. The latter constantly stresses, as in his latest New Year video, that we all want to get “better and better” in a target language. He even mentioned the unmentionable of reading a grammar book! But the question on getting proficient in writing in any language is “how”.
And I certainly agree with their approach. I would characterise that as being rather like early efforts in swimming, where you need to plunge in and plough on, rather than be over-anxious and trembling on the side… And in my view unduly worrying about style, grammar, spelling, punctuation, nuance, etc, from the outset is not a good initial approach. That all comes much later.
It is clearly a pitfall when there is “pronunciation paralysis” in early efforts to speak a language, which has to be overcome. Similarly in output through writing there can be the dreaded “writer’s block” as a challenging obstacle.
Surely an analysis depends on the level of the speaker or the writer? And also what they are now aiming for? That ranges from absolute beginner to total mastery. We were originally being asked about writing up to B2 and there were some useful tips, but these different levels require different options as to “how”.
Incidentally, I would certainly never “categorise” someone in any unpleasant way for their current level of spoken or written language, whatever your psychological studies might say! For example, I have just been stopped in the street by someone, who turned out to be Japanese, asking in stumbling English the way to the British Museum. I obviously gave directions carefully and thought to myself “this was a brave attempt!” We both smiled, which is a near universal method of basic communication.
Writing precisely in any language, as we can all appreciate, is a huge step further than basic conversation. But again I think the answer is the Krashen/Kaufmann of massive “comprehensible, compelling input” as the fundamental basis. This allows for that all-important “self correction” mentioned by Professor Krashen. And then as Steve Kaufmann repeatedly says “if you want to get good at speaking you must speak a lot” and this approach also holds for writing skills - you have to write a lot!
You yourself suggested as one of the possible tools for advanced writing getting a good teacher, and I agree wholeheartedly. By “good” I would mean supportive even when making the inevitable corrections, as the opposite I had at times in early schooldays of scrawling, indecipherable, rambling “red pen” gibberish were definitely not helpful!
And few weeks before he just said to not studying grammar, again, making an argument against what schools do right now (which I agree), but leaving out the reality as a whole.
What I don’t like is pushing an idea at all cost just leaving out another part of the story! It is not because in school we teach grammar badly, that grammar is bad. This is the argument of a child!
I just don’t like to “buy” in these marketing strategies, but that’s me and I don’t really have to defend anyone in particular, but I can share my ideas regardless.
Good for you, but that’s a tourist. Are you going to do the same to a person that is living in your country for 5 years? 10 years? And they speak and write poorly? Sure, you are trying to rationalise your feelings, but what I said before is different. It’s not that you regard to other people negatively. I said that you will immediately give respect to a person (especially if living in your country for a long time) that speak your language correctly. The more they speak it correctly, or write it, the more you will respect them. Maybe you could be the 1% that doesn’t, but the vast majority do like that.
Which means, that unconsciously we recognise the effort in learning a language, because we know it is not easy, and we respect who does that effort to learn ours.
In the same way, we respect people that write very well, or speak very well, even in our own language. Even if we don’t like them.
I don’t judge humanity, I just analyse it and learn from it.
Yes, the problem is that we improve speaking and writing how? Just by input and magically unlocking the language? They might believe in so, but I don’t.
You need correction, you need to know the rules of the language (without obsessing on it), and of course lots of practice. The better the supervision is, the better we become.
The prove is always there, are people blind? Most of native speakers are very bad at writing their own language, so definitely exposure and input is ZERO regarding writing. Plus, many students make a ton of mistakes after they get a degree in high school! In their own language.
By good teacher, I would mean someone that is competent and excellent. That they are capable to understand your mistakes and guide you to correct them, immediately. The higher you want to go with your writing, more excellent your teacher needs to be.
Supportive or not, at the end you need results, and you pay your teacher to get results.
IMHO.
Btw, considering the strong headache I have, I shouldn’t even writing in these days. So, if I sound too harsh, I apologize but it just occurred to me that I don’t even realise it at the moment.
Your point of view is understandable. When Krashen makes statements like: “we only acquire language in only one way, when we understand it”, it is contradicted by the experience of language learners who find that the words just don’t beautifully fall of the tip of their tongue as a result of input alone. I could understand feeling frustrated or deceived upon later finding out that “if you want to get good at speaking you must speak a lot," even if comprehensible input is far and away the most important component in language learning.
Regarding corrections, I have been underwhelmed by the research I’ve seen cited to declare corrections don’t “work”. As far as I understand, there is ongoing research on writing corrective feedback in L2 learning, and there is evidence generally supporting the effectiveness of that feedback. I’m sure there is plenty of room to criticize those studies, too, but it doesn’t seem like broad declarations that all corrections don’t work would be be well supported. Perhaps @bembe is right to point out the difference between useful feedback and “rambling “red pen” gibberish”
@hiptothehop Thank you, I hope to feel better soon as well.
Regarding corrections, I actually have another idea/method. The corrections that I find important is when we discuss with the teacher about our own mistakes. A very competent teacher, with at least high knowledge in grammar (real knowledge, not parroting rules), and a creative mind and attitude. A creative mind is very important because it is the only way a teacher can give countless option trying to find the solution/combination that will make us understand.
You write something and the teacher is reading your material in front of you. The teacher decides the priority, and start telling you the first most important mistake that he/she sees. At this point, you talk with the teacher about that issue, so you interact with the teacher about that problem, going deeper, asking questions, making examples, and so on.
That interaction is what really helps you fixing the problem, you now acquire more knowledge about grammar, and understand a lot more things because they are tailored to your real capacity. You can go on fixing the same problem for weeks, until you get it.
I personally don’t find much benefit in receiving old style corrections at all, I write sometimes in the “writing exchange” feature here in LingQ, but more for having an idea of some mistake, not because I think it will be useful to actually improve my writing.
Same thing for normal old style corrections.
It is interesting to know about those researches, but again, they probably haven’t tried my methods.
I don’t believe much in those numbers above, especially on writing, because a person could be mislead in thinking they need to reach some abstract quota to achieve something.
The progression instead it could be totally different, and paradoxically requiring much less work if done in the right way, depending on our own knowledge.
What we haven’t said is that unfortunately, we lose our writing skills very quickly, much quicker that reading, listening and speaking. If we don’t train speaking, we can sound a bit rusty but we can catch up quickly, but writing is different. We forget rules, and we need to work them again.
Thanks all for the interesting discussion on this topic. After contemplating the collective wisdom of this group, I’m not going to assign a number goal for words of writing like I do for input activities. I’ll simply take some time each week to do a little writing, focusing on topics/areas that I want to develop my ability to express myself, do some first pass corrections with ChatGPT and follow up with tutors as necessary. Then I’ll adjust to my needs as I go. The numbers will fall where they will.
Perhaps I made this all too complicated? It wouldn’t be the first time. I found the discussion fascinating and illuminating, nonetheless. Thank you!
