FULL INTERVIEW: This Medical Student Learned To Speak Phenomenal Chinese Within **One Year** in the UK with his Efficiency Focused Methods Have Sending Shockwaves Reverberating Throughout The Language Learning World

Open Forum
81

Chinese grammar is very simple, but that does not mean that knowing every intricacy of the language is easy. Latin grammar is also very straight forward. English is arguably one of the most complex languages in terms of grammar, but it is also one of the easiest languages to learn and use.

Difficulty of grammar =/= difficulty of fluency acquisition

82

I agree with everything except for (2). There is nothing wrong or harmful with gaining high-level passive Chinese prior to fully understanding pronunciation and tones.

83

In my experience, Anki is a useful tool, but entirely unnecessary for efficient learning of Chinese characters. I think I used it way too much (it is very inefficient), but that was because I was lazy (I did anki while watching a plethora of movies, series etc).

84

I am a native speaker of English so I don’t know the rules but what are the most difficult parts of English grammar?

85

@peterbormann
you referenced the Dunning-Kreuger effect with this phrase “I feel competent, therefore I’m competent”.
I was just wondering if you ever feel that way?

86

"feel euphoric
there is too much ego
relying on volatile states of the mind (“feeling like it”, “fun”, etc.)
utterly foolish
running blindly forward and not knowing what you’re doing is usually a recipe for failure
wasting many months or years of precious life
 "overpromising and underdelivering”
 everything must be super-super easy, super-super fun, super-super fast
”

Are we still talking SLA or is this from the Handbook for Young Men Contemplating Marriage?

87

Uff, I still have to read 71 comments in this thread.
I’ll need some days to process all that :slight_smile:

@Michilini
And there was me thinking you were a fan of my work
:wink:
I appreciate the work you invest in your blog and your podcast!

However, I don’t agree that "common sense discussions " are superior to scientific discussions (beyond language learning). The former are often completely shallow, full of biases, stereotypes, clichĂ©s, etc. and don’t have much to contribute to science.

But that’s okay, because science serves the societal function of providing deeper insights, esp., as non-intuitive and unlikely knowledge, that can’t normally be achieved in everyday communication processes due to lack of time, money, expertise, and so on.

It would be completely absurd for everyday communication to try to fulfill a societal function that it has never been able to fulfill, wouldn’t it?

To give you a concrete example in this context:
Do you remember our little discussion about your common sense-based thesis that “L2 learning can reduce / avoid conflicts”?

  • Well, if a conflict in communication processes is often just a “no to a previously expressed no”, then a good knowledge of a language is the way to create more, not less (especially trivial) conflicts!
  • In short, knowing multiple languages opens up the possibility of creating more conflicts (like this one!) in communication processes - all the time.
  • Ergo your thesis “auto-explodes”, which you had a hard time understanding. However, with an advanced (social science) theory of conflict, as found in Niklas Luhmann’s “Social Systems” (Social Systems by Niklas Luhmann | Goodreads), that’s easy to conceptualize and understand.
  • In addition, Luhmann’s book also includes “effective” social mechanisms for conflict resolution, such as the distancing of conflict partners, the evolution of the legal system, the decisions of superiors in hierarchies, and so on. Compared to that the role of language learning as a conflict resolution mechanism is irrelevant.
    In sum:
    When it comes to social processes interactions / communication processes, organizations, etc.), the social sciences have much more to offer than almost any everyday discussion based on (more or less helpless) common sense.

And that’s usually the case with other scientific disciplines (including those related to languages / language learning), too.

So there is no superiority of common sense / everyday discussions over scientific debates.

“Anyway, let’s not fall out over it.”
No, we shouldn’t, let’s just agree to disagree.
It’s probably not a good idea to waste time on discussing the distinction “common sense - everday communication / science”.

88

“I’m actually slightly stunned that you can on the one hand raise obscurantism and ghost talk as a problem and in the same breath cite Derrida as a credible source.” @Michilini

My academic speciality were distinction-based approaches (Derrida, Luhmann, Spencer Brown, Fuchs, Laclau / Mouffe, Dirk Baecker, etc.). If you think Derrida is “obscurantist,” then you don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about.

Here’s an excellent PhD thesis based on the works of Spencer Brown / Luhmann, Derrida, and Wittgenstein, unfortunately only in German, by an acquaintance of mine who taught in Yale and is now professor in Potsdam, Germany: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331813145_Sinn_und_Gedachtnis_Die_Zeitlichkeit_des_Sinns_und_die_Figuren_ihrer_Reflexion

When it comes to communication and language, I’d say this book is highly advanced, very precise, and shows the potential of Derrida’s insights - beyond uninteresting deconstructionist language games


89

Last comment for today:
“SRS targeted to frequency words and also suffers from the drawback that the low frequency words drop off pretty quickly once you get above 5,000 words.”
Exactly. And that’s why I would never rely on reading or / while listening alone. Contrary to Steve’s position (see his recent video on how he learns vocabulary), I find artificial SRS like Anki, Memrise, etc. extremely helpful in several use cases (e.g., for learning the most frequent 1000-5000 words / sentences at the beginning, conjugations, grammar patterns, low-frequency collocations, idioms, etc.).

In my opinion, Steve tries to “rationalize” his “(don’t) feeling like it”-attitude by saying that natural SRS is superior than artificial SRS (and that’s not the case)


“So pros and cons.”
Yes, therefore my solution is mixing both types of SRS to get the best of both worlds :slight_smile:

90

It is possible that Steve is only trying to get to B1/B2 level which is the sweet spot for words coming up with reading. But we’d have to ask him.

Yo Steve: are you aiming for B1/B2 when you do your vocabulary via reading approach?

91

Ha, ha, ha, S.I.! Very nice meta-comment.

As I wrote yesterday, common-sense based discussions aren’t good enough any more when it comes to first / second language(s) and communication. For example, there are no such things as “passive” reading, “passive” listening, “passive” vocabulary, communication as the “transfer (sending / receiving) of thoughts”, communication as the “fusion of minds” (social mind, collective / group memory, global / group consciousness, intersubjectivity, 
) etc.

  • In a literal sense, that’s nonsense.
  • In a figurative sense, these are just metaphors without any explanatory value.
    What’s lacking here are good scientific theories - but nowadays we have some of them (e.g. Luhmann’s social systems) :slight_smile:

Ergo, it’s a bad idea to completely ignore science (i.e. psychology, linguistics, SLA, etc.) and claim an epistemic superiority of non-specialized everyday discussions over specialized scientific discussions where a lot of research is involved. Especially the latter is nonsense with a capital N :slight_smile:

“so you don’t feel like a piece of shit”
If people separate their sense of self-worth and the development of competence in (practical) skills acquisition processes then this problem doesn’t come up because it’s not about one’s ego and the protection of one’s sense of self-worth.

It’s about soberly evaluating one’s strengths and weaknesses with regard to various skill levels and then take the right measures, i.e. reading scientific and other literature, practicing, setting goals, and so on.

Otherwise, the “Dunning-Kruger bias” may take over to protect a fragile sense of self-worth:
“The researchers attributed the trend to a problem of metacognition—the ability to analyze one’s own thoughts or performance. “Those with limited knowledge in a domain suffer a dual burden: Not only do they reach mistaken conclusions and make regrettable errors, but their incompetence robs them of the ability to realize it,
[
]
In fact, those who are the least skilled are also the most likely to overestimate their abilities.”
(Dunning-Kruger Effect | Psychology Today)

So the general problem for all of us is:

  • We can’t appreciate what we can’t understand.
  • We don’t understand because we don’t know.
  • We don’t know that we don’t know.

In short, we’re all incompetent / ignorant - sometimes sooner, sometimes later.
Then there are two options:

  • Realizing one’s incompetence and doing something about it without having to protect one’s sense of self-worth.
  • Protecting one’s sense of self-worth by creating illusions of competence without doing anything against one’s incompetence.
    Who do you think is the better learner and info processor?

“Peter [not] out [yet], Have a [not ] nice day.”
Just choose one of the four options :slight_smile:

PS -
“lost in one of the Peter’s treatise in the comments.”
In this case, it’s a good idea to read only the bold = important things or ignore the comment in its entirety. :slight_smile:

92

“single mutually exclusive methods to see which components had the biggest effect.”
I agree that would be great. For example,

  • comparing extensive L2 reading without audio readers with extensive L2 reading with audio readers
  • or comparing one of these two reading variants with Anki learning.
  • comparing the combo “extensive reading with / without audio readers + SRS” with “SRS alone” or “extensive reading alone”
  • adding explicit grammar learning
    etc.

If the time is the same (let’s say 30 min a day, 5 days a week for 6 months) then the testers could compare the vocabulary size, test the reading comprehension of specific texts, etc.

However, not all SRS learning is created equal:

  • Is it really “active recall” or just going through the flashcards very fast?
  • What is tested: frequent vocabulary, less frequent vocabulary, single words, collocations, idioms, etc.?
  • Is context info given: yes or no?
  • Is audio there: yes or no?
  • What kind of exercises are used: translation from the L2 → L1 or vice versa or both? Cloze tests (What is a Cloze Test? Cloze Deletion Tests and Language Learning)? etc.
    etc.

In short, it can get complicated very fast.

93

Good question, Adam.

I 'd say rather not, because I wasn’t raised that way (that is, I’ve never arrived and always see room for improvement in everything that interests me. In short, I’m very critical of myself).

Also, since being a teenager, I’ve always loved tests/exams/(job) interviews, etc.: not because they’re 100 per cent objective (they’re not), but I love the pressure and feedback I can get from them.
I usually do well in those situations, but about 5% of the time I just sucked (which is a valuable info in itself!) :slight_smile:

In other words, when it comes to evaluating my own skill level in whatever domain I’m interested in (let’s say SLA / communication research, organisation / startup design, programming, modeling business processes and business process mgm., walking / running, calisthenics, etc. at the moment) I never rely just on my own feelings, I rather test myself in all kinds of ways (which includes journaling, stats / data).

Therefore, this quote by Richard Feynman definitely belongs to my personal credo:
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”

In short, “testing (yourself)” is a must!

94

“In both of these cases, dropping reading and writing should make it quicker to achieve speaking and listening only.”
Definitely.
However, if you use an SRS like Anki you still practice (intensive) reading.

“My theory was that dropping speaking should bring it down further.”
Interesting thesis. I don’t know the answer to this.
However, it may depend what you mean by “speaking”:

  1. Repeating Anki sentences aloud?
  2. Shadowing of dialogues?
  3. Speaking freely to yourself?
  4. Memorising a prepared talk (where you present yourself, for example)?
  5. Speaking on a topic you specialize in, so you already have a great deal of background knowledge?
  6. Conversing freely with one or more native speakers about everyday topics that might come up in a bar / restaurant, etc.?
    etc.

Esp. 1-4 are very time- and cost-efficient options. And they have many benefits (thinking in the L2, improving your pronunciation, memorizing collocations, etc.), because you engage with the L2 more intensively than through reading and/or listening alone.

95

“I don’t care about perfecting speaking.” (@xxdb)
I agree. Esp. perfecting our pronunciation as L2 learners to achieve a native-like level is usually not a good investment of our time.

One aspect that hasn’t been mentioned in this discussion so far is that instead of having a native-like pronunciation, it’s much more important to have something interesting to say - and that often means having some experience / background knowledge.

For example, I have an Iranian colleague (a SW developer who lives in Germany) at the moment:

  • His German is broken (the pronunciation is sometimes hard to understand, he doesn’t always know the right words / collocations, etc.)
  • But he has a great sense of humor and is knowledgeable in IT.
  • Therefore, communication is always great, even though we often resort to “Denglish” (a wild mix of English and German).
    In short, someone can still be a great communicator even if their speaking / listening skills aren’t that good.

Or to quote (I think) La Rochefoucauld vaguely from memory.
“Monsieur Q has a pleasant pronunciation in six languages. Unfortunately, he has nothing to say in any of them.” :slight_smile:

96

“We can wager if you like. I plan to start January 2023.” (@xxdb)
I don’t think we need to place any bets here.
Just keep us posted on how your experience has been.
And it would be nice to have some stats on that.

I’m really interested in that kind of stuff


97

@Hagowingchun
“Peter isn’t there some kind of diminishing returns for learning so tracking hours is obviously more effective but will be off by up to 5-20%?”
I agree. Unfortunately, the “quality aspect” of learning is usually ignored in such stats. For example:

  • It’s really hard to maintain focused attention for hours on end (even if techniques like “Pomodoro” are used).
  • Or: How do we split our attention when multitasking, e.g. doing chores and listening to a podcast? And how good is our listening comprehension really in this scenario?, etc.
  • Or: When we use Anki, do we really practice “active recall” or do we just go through the flashcards very quickly? Do we translate from L1 → L2 (which is hard) or from L2 → L1 (which is much easier), and so forth.
    So even stats should be taken with a grain of salt, and it’s advisable to factor in that they may differ by “5-20%” (or even more).
98

@Hagowingchun
“Personally how big is the divide for spelling pronuncation from french from spanish you said there are 2 types im curious of your experience because you know all the romance languages haha?”
“All” the Romance languages? No :slight_smile:
I only know Latin, French, Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese. And I’ve dabbled a bit with European Portuguese, Romanian, and Italian (but those experiences were fairly superficial, i.e. less than 100 h).

The problem here is twofold:

  1. There are many pronunciations both in French and Spanish. That is:
  • The pronunciation of French spoken in African countries such as Kongo is quite different from the French spoken in France.
  • The pronunciation of French spoken in Paris (Ile de France) is different from the French spoken in Biarritz (near the border to Spain) or the French spoken in southern France (Marseille, etc.).
  • It’s even more varied with Spanish: the Spanish spoken in Murcia is different from the Spanish spoken in Andalusia, Madrid, etc. And the Spanish spoken in Spain is different from the Spanish spoken in Chile or Argentina, etc.
    If you then add different social milieus, dialects, slang, etc., the whole pronunciation scenario becomes very complicated very quickly.
  1. The distinction isn’t simply “oral vs written”. It’s more of an oral - scriptural spectrum with many different options. See (in English): http://www.intermedia.uni-freiburg.de/raible/Publikationen/Files/2019_Raible_KOe.pdf

However, leaving all this aside, the common opinion in Romance studies is that the distance between the oral and written dimensions is greater in French than in Spanish.
In French (and in Brazilian Portuguese), it’s as if one has to learn two different languages :slight_smile:

99

@xxdb
“I think that Children spend a much greater amount of time and they babble. They essentially practice natural IPA till they hit the right sound. If adults use IPA I believe they will hit correct pronunciation faster than a baby babbling will.”
Interesting thesis. We probably have to check the neuroscientific research on this.

However, babies who are still in the womb get used to the sound of the language spoken around them. So the neuroplastic attunement process would begin before babies start babbling and practicing “natural IPA”.

See:

100

“My gut check is this:
Will got passive listening understanding from his youtube and immersion. He got active grammar from his immersion and speaking practice.
He got vocabulary from anki
He got corrected vocabulary from immersion and feedback.”

Yes, in Will’s concrete case we can only speculate, esp. about how many hours he really put into the whole SLA process. But ca. 900 hours in a level 4 language in one year - why do I always want to write “5”? :slight_smile: - doesn’t seem plausible in this context.