I think I was not getting my point across. This is not meant to be another ‘silent period’ discussion.
Let’s say you are off your silent period (whether it exists for you or not). You come across someone who is not your language partner or tutor. You and this person already have a common language to communicate, but he/she is a native speaker the language you are learning. What is the % of comprehension you expect in order for you to attempt to converse with this person?
I don’t think there is an absolute answer. Just want to hear opinions.
Edwin, this decision is purely subjective. If you feel like trotting out a few lines in your new language you will do so. I would attempt it even if I only expected to understand 20% or so of what came back. There may not be a deep conversation but such an exchange could still be quite satisfying and encourage me to more efforts.
Similarly I might sign up with an online tutor just to try things out, even though I would struggle to say anything for 15 minutes, again just to try things out. I would not consider these activities major elements of my learning, nor are they real natural conversations. They are part of the exploration of the language.
If there is already another common language, I don’t need to expect to understand any percentage at all. In any case, if I’ve created a sentence that requires an answer, that answer is bound to be somewhat related and that is enough to guarantee a certain degree of comprehension, even if that was a prerequisite.
Edwin, I think I understand where you are coming from.
For me, I would say it depends entirely on the context. If I have been learning, say, Polish and I visit Krakow on vacation, I might try to ask people directions, or use Polish to buy things in a store even if I have a small vocabulary and understanding.
In social situations, again it depends, if there is a conversation in native-speed language X, and you are just getting to grips with that, then it is hard to join in except here and there because it’s hard to follow what is being said. But if you try and make a few mistakes it’s not the end of the world.
However, if I want to use the second language in a business situation I will have to have a far greater comprehension. When I first started to learn Hebrew I was asked to attend a business presentation in Hebrew and take notes and report back. It was very frustrating because of course I didn’t understand much, and things went too fast to guess from context or “just try to listen harder” (the advice I was given!) But now I can speak the language fluently* I have no problems.
When people talk about % of the conversation understood, do they mean sentences, overall ideas, or words?
I see that a lot in this topic.
If it’s the former two, I don’t know how people can stand not having at least 80% comprehension. I would become very stressed out if that were so.
But maybe as I learn more languages that will begin to be less stressful for me.
@edwin - I think it depends on what you want to talk about with this person. If you start talking to them in their language, they might ask you where you learnt it, how you learnt it and why etc. I find these conversations easy to handle without being at a very high level in the language. As soon as the conversation drifts to a topic for which I don’t have the vocabulary or familiarity, I will struggle and probably switch back to English. I’m not sure exactly what % of comprehension I would like to have before attempting to speak to them (and the % of comprehension will vary depending on what content you’re listening to anyway). But I know if I’m at a lower level, I cannot handle the conversation once it moves onto various topics (plus I make many basic mistakes).
@summergold, peter: I agree. The situation (context) is important. If I am in a life-threatening situation, I wouldn’t attempt to conserve unless I understand over 95% of the conversation.
@SolYViento: doesn’t matter if you measure by sentences, overall ideas, or words. Just state which one you use.
But I guess my key point is about sustainability. Let’s say you don’t care about the outcome of the conversation (e.g., you are in a million-dollar business deal, but you don’t really care whether you make the deal or not), and you want to sustain the conversation. As for myself, if I cannot understand at least 50% of the overall idea, I am not confident enough to sustain the conversation, and hence I won’t attempt it. As for Freidemann’s original concern, I am ok if I don’t understand the other 50%.
Remember, sustaining the conversation relies on both sides. It does not matter how eager you want to use your language, if the other has no interest or find it uncomfortable, he/she will switch back to the common language. Language partners and tutors are of course exceptions. That’s why I excluded them in my original discussion. If you request the other party in advance for language help, he/she already becomes your ‘language partner’ by my own definition.
Edwin, why not start a separate thread on this subject to attract the opinions of more people.
In my case, there are two situations. Either the conversation is a) meaningful, purposeful, for example a business discussion, or asking for directions, or on the other hand b) it is just a chance to practice the language.
In the former case I always go with the language that my counterpart speaks the best and wants to use. If my customers speak poor English but want to use it, I will speak English, but usually if I know that I speak their language better than they speak English I will use their language (this is usually the case in Japan or France for example).
When I met with the President of the local Vancouver Korean newspaper, however poor my Korean was, her English was worse and she did not like to use it so I struggled in Korean, understanding about 20-30%.
If it is just language practice it does not matter, and the situation is as I described in an earlier comment.
I thought about starting a new thread, but I see somehow this discussion could be related to Freidemann’s original concern: (putting in Steve’s words) “How important is comprehension versus speaking?”
If I say I will converse happily even if I can only get 80% of the meanings, I kind of imply that I don’t really care about not understanding the other 20%. Freidemann seems to be uncomfortable even if he misses 10% of the conversation. But then may be we are talking about different situations.
I think ultimately this indicates the how much uncertainty we are willing to live with.
But as for you Steve, judging by your earlier comment, you are looking for a high degree of comprehension in a normal non-life threatening situation, somewhere I would put it as 90%?
Edwin, you are right that it is connected to the title of this thread, but it is also related to the more general question of when we feel comfortable speaking. Some people may have stopped following this thread. In any case, my view is that we are often forced into situations were we cannot control how much we are going to understand. I am always a little uncomfortable when I do not understand, and if it is important I usually ask for clarification, unless I am just part of a general social conversation. There are always things I do not understand in every language I speak. I am not afraid of situations where I have to ask for clarification every second sentence. I do not deliberately seek out such situations but it happens, and I do not mind.
Over 90% is a level I would only expect in French and Japanese, the languages I have used the most. After that the comprehension level drops, but I can usually figure things out from context, and ask for clarification for things that seem important.
Have just discovered this thread. I think if I read it very carefully it would probably answer the question that’s been bothering me all weekend. However, I think I’d like the answers phrased more simply (I’m very tired after a weekend camping in the wilds of woolly Wales) so I shall start a new, but possibly very similar) thread.
