This is excellent advice. I was going to write something similar to him when I realized I hadn’t been very clear when I was in a rush earlier and just wrote, “do this” (referring to your explanation. However, the tagging idea was a wonderful suggestion. I wish I had LingQ, it’s tagging ability, and your explanation when I was drilling this years ago.
I’m a Spaniard, but I’m no a “leísta”. This is an indirect object because they said something to him/her
A little more background, since you seem to find this interesting (I didn’t want to give too much unnecessary detail in the original explanation).
What happens is that there are two very different kinds of passive sentences in English.
a) You can turn a transitive sentence into passive, that is, a sentence which has a subject and a direct object
They found a treasure → The treasure was found [by them]
This is a “normal” passive. Most European languages have it, including Spanish
Encontraron un tesoro → El tesoro fue encontrado [por ellos]
In Spanish you can also express this through a “reflexive” passive
Se encontró un tesoro
Notice that in the active sentence “tesoro” was an object, in the “proper” passive (a treasure was found, un tesoro fue encontrado) is the subject. In the reflexive passive, it’s a bit of both (??? See note **) but it does act as an object (direct object) if you change it for a pronoun:
Se lo encontró: It was found. A more natural example:
People consider John a good person → John is considered [to be] a good person
La gente considera a John una buena persona → John es considerado una buena persona
OR
Se considera a John una buena persona → Se lo considera una buena persona
In Spain you’ll hear very often “Se le considera una buena persona”. That would be a case of “leísmo” and a particularly frequent one: even I (who am not leísta) would tend to say “se le”, partly because “se” rhymes with “le”, partly because it’s a very rare case: the second kind of reflexive passive (below) tends to be used with complements much more often than this kind, so “se le” is much more usual an sounds more natural than “se lo/la”
b) In English you can also turn intransitive sentences (those with no direct object) into a passive form:
They told him (John) to go → He/John was told to go
Here “him” is an indirect object. Most European languages do not allow that kind of passive, and that includes Spanish.
Le dijeron que se fuera → Él fue dicho que se fuera* [Incorrect!]
However, you can still use a reflexive passive in Spanish:
Se dijo a John que se fuera → Se le dijo que se fuera
The person that was told is still an indirect object. “Se lo dijo” is not possible in this case.
** Note: Both subject and object??? Well, in actual/real reflexive sentences subject and object coincide (that’s why they’re reflective): She washed herself. In reflexive passive it’s a bit more complicated, that’s why “Se cometió errores” y “Se cometieron errores” are both possible: in the first “errores” appears as just the object (there’s no subject, impersonal sentencee), whereas in the second “errores” are both subject and object, a truly reflexive sentence. In very detailed grammar books you’ll find that these two kinds of sentences are discussed as separate structures. In practice you can forget about it and use either possibility interchangeably
[Edit: I’ve changed a part of this discussion from a previous version, which I think was a bit confused/confusing]
Very good examples were given by Francisco! Mucho gracias!
Although I am a teacher, I don’t believe that we have to study a lot of grammar on the first level - the common words and some typical word combinations are much more important there.
But one day the time comes when we would like to know more profoundly how to make up the sentences and why this or that form must be used. It’s time for some clear grammar explanations.
And yet some forms can be obscure for us - ignore them, their time will come just later!..
Does the construction with “se” have a similar function to the middle voice in older Indoeuropean languages, I wonder?
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/middle_voice
I have noticed that, even in modern German, we may hear things like “es befindet sich etwas” or “es hat sich rumgesprochen” - which don’t seem to me to be ‘normal’ use of the reflexive pronoun. I believe Icelandic still has a middle voice? And doesn’t it still survive in fragmentary form with the S-passive in languages like modern day Norwegian and Swedish?
Ah, the ecstasy and pain of grammar! 
Hi Francisco, should you not rectify this example: Se John dijo a John que se fuera ?
Excellent. Thank you again. I had actually read the first post in my mail, then login to ask questions and then the new version appeared. But I think I got it. In the book I used to read, the two impersonal sentences se cometio errores and se cometieron errores are treated two different ways as you said, so your explanation is better.
A question I had, just for my own brain to see how this is constructed: when you use the example, “Se le dijo que se fuera,” since this is a reflexive passive with “le” being an indirect object, is the literal English translation of “Se le dijo que…” “It told itself to HIM that…”?
You know, like se cerro la puerta, the door closed itself
That’s a good point, Jay. Maybe there’s a relationship, it makes a lot of sense.
I would say that in German this structure is rather frequent, not to the extent of Spanish but I don’t think it’s rare. You mention some examples. Besides, Wittgenstein’s famous quote comes to mind:
Was sich überhaupt sagen lässt, lässt sich klar sagen
I think there was a thread here on Lingq about “sich lassen”, which is a particularly egregious example, where you explained quite nicely how it is used
+benscheelings: You’re right, thank you, I’ll correct it
+LILingquist: Yes, that would be a literal rendition of the sentence
In fact, many expressions in Greek that use the modern middle/passive form are similar to equivalent Spanish uses of the reflexive passive. Same thing in Classical Greek, which still kept the difference between middle and passive in a few tenses/aspects (aorist, future,…)
“…I think there was a thread here on Lingq about “sich lassen”, which is a particularly egregious example, where you explained quite nicely how it is used…”
I have vague memory of this, but it must have been a while ago?
I mean: I have a pretty good practical grasp of how to use ‘lassen’ (well, I think so anyway!) but my memory of the strict grammar book definitions is growing hazy these days, I fear.
In the link I gave above, one of the examples of an (unmarked) middle voice in English was: “This Volvo drives like a tank”. I have a hunch (although it’s a question for a native speaker!) that a good translation of this into German would be “Dieser Volvo lässt sich wie ein Panzer fahren.” But maybe one could say: “Dieser Volvo fährt sich wie ein Panzer”…? EDIT: or even just “…fährt wie ein Panzer”?
(Or maybe all are possible?? Keine Ahnung!)
@ ftornay
“ Wittgenstein’s famous quote comes to mind:
Was sich überhaupt sagen lässt, lässt sich klar sagen “
What came to my mind reading this quotation of Wittgenstein, are the famous words of Nicolas Boileau in the Art poétique (1674):
Ce qui se conçoit bien s’énonce clairement
Et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément
As I said, this is a very mundane, usual structure. The use of “middle voice” makes it sound strange. I think that comparing very simple examples in a couple of languages does help learners come to grips with this issue:
Compare these three sentences
A) I open the door
B) The door opens
C) The door is opened [by someone]
A is active, B is middle, C is passive. Most English transitive verbs can be turned into the three voices. This is the default (there are exceptions) way for English to build the middle voice: use a transitive verb as if it were intransitive. Jay’s “drive” example is completely equivalent.
In some languages (including English, excluding Spanish or German) the passive form without the agent (by…) can also have a stative meaning (The door is in a opened state, the door stands opened)
Most other European languages (that I know of) build the “middle voice” by using reflexive forms, they also tend to prefer this structure to proper passive voice, except in more or less formal contexts
German:
A) Ich öffne die Tür
B) Die Tür öffnet sich
C) Die Tür wird [von jemandem] geöffnet
Spanish:
A) Abro la puerta
B) La puerta se abre
C) La puerta es abierta [por alguien]
Russian:
A) Я открываю дверь
B) Дверь открывает_ся_
C) Дверь открыта [кем-то]
French:
A) J’ouvre la porte
B) La porte _s’_ouvre
C) La porte est ouverte [par quelqu’un]
Italian:
A) Apro la porta
B) La porta si apre
C) La porta è aperta [da qualcuno]
Greek does have a medium verb form, which in modern Greek [and in most tenses of Ancient Greek] has the same form as the passive (but it’s much more frequent)
A) Ανοίγω την πόρτα
B) Η πόρτα ανοίγεται
C) Η πόρτα ανοίγεται [από κανένα]
@ftornay
That post deserves a rose - but they won’t let me give one!
I also tried to give that rose, but I did not succeed.
Italian B: La porta si apre; I don’t think there should be elision if the i.
+Prinz_Skjegg, +bescheelings, thank you. There’s no need to give a rose
+benscheelings, you’re right, the elided version in Italian looks old fashioned, if not downright pretentious. I’ve changed it
I have also changed the Russian participle to its short form, which I think is the correct one in this case. Anyway, I only wrote this “proper passive” Russian sentence for completion. I suppose that native speakers would find its use in such a plain scenario completely weird
@ftornay:
Compare these three sentences
A) I open the door
B) The door opens
C) The door is opened [by someone]
[…]
Most other European languages (that I know of) build the “middle voice” by using reflexive forms, they also tend to prefer this structure to proper passive voice, except in more or less formal contexts
[…]
Italian:
A) Apro la porta
B) La porta si apre
C) La porta è aperta [da qualcuno]
It occurs to me that the construction with “si” is sometimes only well rendered by a passive in English. If, for example, I said something like…
“…Si dice che il figlio di Donald Trump è (sia?) un traditore perché aveva dei contatti con avocati del Kremlin…”
…I think that could only be translated as “it is said that Donald Trump’s son…etc…” I suppose you could say: “one says that Donald Trump’s son…etc…” But quite honestly that is stylistically pretty awkward in English - in this instance.
In German, though, I guess we could say:
“Man sagt, der Sohn von Donald Trump sei ein Verräter, weil er sich mit Anwälten vom Kreml getroffen hat.”
But even here it would be my hunch that it would be better style to say: “Es wird behauptet, dass der Sohn…usw…”
Yes, there are several ways to express impersonal sentences in different languages. Here English is particularly fond of the passive voice, as usual.
Btw, before my last post I tried to reply to your very interesting drive\faehrt example ( I don’t have an Umlaut on this Keyboard) but my post seems to have got lost.
I wrote that “faehrt wie ein Panzer” is clearly correct but would translate as “goes/moves/travels like a tank”, which is clearly a different meaning.
On the other hand, if you google “faehrt sich wie”, you’ll find a great deal examples with the same meaning as “drives like”
That’s another example of how English builds the middle voice by using transitive verbs as intransitive, whereas German does so by means of reflexive pronouns
I think we are getting into very fine nuances of meaning here!
One could (perhaps?) understand “…this Volvo drives like a tank…” to have somewhat of the meaning of “goes or moves like a tank”. But my first understanding of this sentence would be that the Volvo handles like a tank from the point-of-view of a driver - thus that it feels like a heavy and cumbersome vehicle with relatively bad acceleration, heavy steering, etc.