“You seem to not understand the fact that one of the most important laws of physics says that matter cannot be created so there must be a Supreme Being that must have created everything in perfect order.”
Firstly, I have a small point. Matter is not really a conserved quantity, so you should probably use energy in this argument. This doesn’t change the argument however.
The truth is, nobody knows how the universe appeared. It isn’t clear if it appeared out of nothing, has always existed, or was created as a result of some outside event. Maybe these questions have no meaning. It would appear that within the universe itself, energy cannot be created or destroyed, but we don’t know if this generalises to events such as the one that led to the beginning of the universe, if indeed there was one.
Your argument consists basically of taking a law of physics that appears to apply to the universe as we know it, assuming it generalises to everything, stating that this is in contradiction to one possible scenario for the formation of the universe, and then concluding that the answer must therefore be magic.
What exactly do you mean by ‘Supreme Being’? I guess you mean a conscious personal God that is all powerful, but please correct me if I am wrong. Why is this the only entity that can create the universe? Why does it have to be all powerful?
Finally, what is this ‘perfect order’ you mentioned?
Your last point makes sense. Anyone with half a brain can see who was behind 9/11. It was the George Bushes, along with the British royal family, and Saddam Hussein, who, as we all know, are reptilian impostors.
Madara, go ahead and believe in the tooth fairy and in santa claus. I expect nothing less from a person who believes the… oh hell George Carlin says it better than me. George Carlin --- Religion is Bullshit - YouTube Okay that’s all I’ll say about this. I don’t argue with religious people anymore. It really just isn’t a fair fight. Your side losses every time
I would agree that it is a bad idea to debate religion (or, indeed, politics) on an internet forum. These are topics where people tend to have absolute beliefs, and where it is generally impossible for anything fundamental to be proven or disproven. MADARA finds it absurd to suppose that the entire universe arose randomly out of nothing, and that there is therefore ultimately no meaning to it all. (For whatever it’s worth I agree with him, BTW.)
But others see it differently - that’s just the way it is.
The thing we should all agree about is freedom of speech and freedom of conscience for each individual, IMO.
Well then Frappe, perhaps you should educate yourself with the works of Lawrence Kraus. Go read some Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens while you’re at it
Hmm, yes - and while I’m at it perhaps I might “educate myself” by reading some Peter Hitchens (brother of the late Christopher, and a vocal conservative Christian commentator here in the UK) as well?
I guess you’re right about debating these things online. These debates always seem to get so aggressive, and eventually somebody always gets compared to Hitler. My experience with these debates is that people often go into them with the aim of ‘winning’, like it is some sort of sport. It’s a shame because the discussions are interesting.
You’re right. But my experience of militant atheists is that they are often (ironically) like the very worst kind of religious people - i.e. filled with a kind of arrogance and certainty, confidently assuming that every single person who disagrees with them are “uneducated” or “unread” or “dumb”, etc, etc…
Basically you can’t have a constructive discussion with a bigot - whether of the religious or unreligious variety.
BTW
I’m not referring to anyone at this forum - just to be clear.
“And we are not setting people on fire because they don’t agree with us!”
I guess it’s too hot a topic to be discussed without people getting too personally involved, which is a pity because it is turn out to be an insightful discussion and provide much food for thought.
…and I promise I was not accusing you of being ‘personally’ involved. I do think that an interesting discussion could be had and it is nice to see people with strong opinions willing to discuss hot topics without it spiraling out of control.
What are the facts that you are referring to and what evidence? I’m all ears - though probably risking being told off for not keeping to the topic of the thread - which as it happens is also interesting!
" i.e. filled with a kind of arrogance and certainty, confidently assuming that every single person who disagrees with them are “uneducated” or “unread” or “dumb”, etc, etc…"
For sure there are many atheists who fit this description, but I really don’t think this describes anything close to the very worst kinds of religious people. I was quite a fan of this new atheist movement for a short time. The main thing I didn’t like about it was how convinced they all are about their own intellectual superiority. They seem to spend too much time congratulating each other for being so logical and rational. However, I didn’t get the feeling that they generally feel themselves smarter than religious people, though maybe more educated, and they certainly don’t in general think that one needs to be stupid to be religious. Of course I speak about generalities, and there will always be individuals who think any given combination of these things.
When it comes to the accusation of atheists being ‘militant’, I generally think this is unfair. Most atheists don’t care about this issue, and there are a small number of very outspoken ‘militant atheists’. However, these guys are no more outspoken on religious issues than is normal for any political, philosophical, or ideological issue. There is an atheist community, and they have some organisations and a few spokespeople who write books and go on TV and make films, but this is no different to what people do for other issues. Go into any large book shop and you will find hundred of books about different political issues, and you will find such people on TV arguing about these issues. If anything, the atheist movement is quite mild. Look at what is going on in America right now. I have never seen anyone take things to such extremes over atheist ideology and I’m not sure how many actually would.
By the way, the thing that I really hate about atheism is the fact that the word has an ‘ei’ in it instead of an ‘ie’. This was a problem before, but having learned German, it is now basically impossible for me to write this word correctly on the first go.
" What are the facts that you are referring to and what evidence? I’m all ears - though probably risking being told off for not keeping to the topic of the thread - which as it happens is also interesting!"
The last 300 years of science is a good place to start. Seriously, science continues to disprove religion every day. The earth is only 6000 years old… we were created in the image of god… Noah (this one really makes me chuckle) put 2 of every animals in the ark… etc etc.
The ark business expanded: Have you heard the one about the dinosaurs and the ark? Supposedly Noah couldn’t fit them all on the ark so they died out. Still waiting to hear why the water-based dinosaurs died out. Or how about all those dinosaur fossils we keep finding? Oh yeah “the devil put the fossils there.”
Then there is the so-called ‘diabolical mimicry’ - ie, Christian similarities to early pagan beliefs. Justin Martyr just sums it up with “Oh well the devil made up those stories”
I could go on for days and I’ve only touched the Christian religion. Unfortunately I had to study “religions of the world” for years during my Catholic school upbringing. Laughable… because my parents are also atheists.
I’ll just end with a quote from Dawkins. “Science… it just works. Bitches”
@Colin: “…For sure there are many atheists who fit this description, but I really don’t think this describes anything close to the very worst kinds of religious people…”
Actually that’s probably a fair point. There are parts of the world (as we’ve seen recently in Kenya) where a particular religion may motivate people to acts of mindless savagery - and obviously this is simply dreadful.
I guess I’ve lead a relatively sheltered life seeing that the only countries I have experienced in person are: UK, US, France, Germany, Austria, and Italy.
(Well I tell a lie - when I was 16 I spent two weeks in Israel with my sister. But at that time things were pretty cool and relaxed over there as well…)
