@ JayB
7% ??? :-0
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I was quite disapointed in the amount of footage shown. A lot of it seemed like the vacuous oohing and ahhing of the presenter. I agree with Mr. Kaufmann in that less of the scientific mumbo-jumbo would have been appreciated. What I did find interesting was the Simcott and Doner meet-up, although yet again a lack of research was shown by stating Simcott as Macedonian. Whether they did this to make his (native) English sound the more impressive, I don’t know. I would love to watch a Skype vid of all the polyglotts shown there in conversation about this video and the possible discussions that came up while they were sat in the meeting together.
@Imy: “…In my opinion, if normal rules applied to politician, they would all be convicted criminals. That goes with the territory.”
I guess you may have a point. But I understand the leader of this new Neo-Nazi band in Greece has a conviction for a violent crime (not just tax-fiddling, or the usual white-collar stuff.)
And they openly advocate the use of lethal force against illegal immigrants!
These looney-tunes got 7% of the popular vote and 21 seats! (i.e. around 1 Greek person out of every 15 who cast a vote supported them!)
It’s quite a worrying new departure, in my opinion…
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I think it is difficult for us to judge since we do not live in Greece.
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Not sure how this thread got talking about politics, but that might be best saved for another thread…
GlobalTV did post a couple of clips from the interview that were aired as a teaser before the show aired. Some of you might have already seen them, but for those who haven’t you can find them here:
I must agree with Imyirtseshem: when you have a political party which is openly Neo-Nazi, which is lead by a violent criminal, and which has policies involving acts of violence and murder towards foreigners, then I don’t think any adult of normal intelligence can be lightly excused for supporting that party - even taking into account the very difficult situation which there is in Greece at the present time.
(Yep, you could say Greek politics way off-topic! But Steve has always said that he allows people to go off-topic here at the LingQ forum, so…)
ad steve: (…) I think it is difficult for us to judge since we do not live in Greece. (…)
What is so difficult about realizing that inciting people to kill others is wrong?
I think it would be sad if we were only prepared to deal with things happening in our own country. OF COURSE, we can and SHOULD take a stand on what is going on somewhere else. Where do you draw the line between “here” and “there” if you suggest we should not? Following your rationale, the neighbour hitting his children and wife should not concern me or I should not try to “judge” him because I don’t know him and all the circumstances that made him beat his wife and children.
Your line of argument is similar to that of those people who keep telling young people they cannot judge what happened during WWII because they did not live at that time. If that is true, how is the next generation ever going to learn from history?!
You don’t have to live in Greece to know what these people say is terrible. Do I have to live in the US to know that the hate propaganda of the Ku Klux Clan is evil and wrong - of course, not. Should I tell a Canadian not to worry about the rise of the far-right groups in Austria just because he does not live here? Of course, not. If he doesn’t know what is going on here, ok, then he won’t be able to judge the situation but his lack of knowledge does not have anything to do with him living here or not. It is rather a question of whether he thinks it is worth taking a look beyond the borders of his country or not.
I don’t need to be a personal victim of the North Korean dictator either to know that enslaving an entire population is wrong. It goes without saying that you or anybody else may think what these people do is not half as bad as I think it is or that it is all still covered by the oh so holy concept of “freedom of speech” but to suggest that we should only care about things happening in our own countries sounds quite strange to me.
I know you wrote “difficult to judge” but for most people this is just an excuse to not care. If it is difficult, then make an effort to learn more about the actual situation.
There is an excellent poem written by the protestant German pastor Martin Niemöller (1892 - 1984) to illustrate my point of view:
„Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Kommunist.
Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.
Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten, habe ich geschwiegen; ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.
Als sie mich holten, gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.“
“When the nazis came to get the communists, I didn’t say a word; after all I was not a communist.
When they imprisoned the social democrats, I didn’t say a word; after all I was not a social democrat.
When they came to get the unionists, I didn’t say a word; after all I was not a unionist.
When they came TO GET ME, there was nobody left who could have raised his voice.”
I hope there will continue to be lots of people who keep “judging” what is going on in other places if fundamental rights are at stake and the right to live without being harassed, attacked or getting killed certainly does count as a fundamental right in my books.
P.S. Since Steve did not mind joining the political part of this discussion I reckon he is ok with the way this thread went. Life sometimes is unpredictable and so are forum threads 
I am a fan of letting people express themselves how they want, and letting threads meander.
I did not say we should not judge Greece. I just that it is difficult to judge if we don’t live there. It is difficult to understand what would cause 7% of the population to vote for this neo-Nazi party. This is not a phenomenon unique to Greece. There is the Jobbik party in Hungary for example, and probably others as well, that I don’t know about.
Hitler did not succeed in a vacuum. He was generally supported by a population, in Germany and Austria, that had been fed heavy doses of Germanic nationalism for generations, and felt aggrieved by defeat in WW1 and the subsequent Versailles agreement.
I think it is useful to understand the mood in a country, the origins of different political views and movements, rather than just considering these voters fools.
“OF COURSE, we can and SHOULD take a stand on what is going on somewhere else.”
“I hope there will continue to be lots of people who keep “judging” what is going on in other places”
One has to be careful to know that they are well informed about a situation before they start throwing their judgements all over the place. You see reserving judgement as an excuse not to care, I see it as the wisdom not to take an extremely opinionated stance about something that you know next to nothing about. I also say this as an American who is tired of being judged by other cultures, especially Europeans, for my lifestyle; often having to deal with ridiculously ignorant opinions about gun control or the political beliefs of libertarians. The world is not as simple as taking ones’ individual moral beliefs and applying them to other societies to create judgements. Having beliefs and opinions about other places and cultures is of course important, but only if they are well informed.
“to suggest that we should only care about things happening in our own countries sounds quite strange to me.” This is a strawman argument, nobody, including steve, said this.
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Since I cannot influence events in other countries, I prefer to try to understand. I wish I were studying Greek these days. I have certainly learned a lot about Russia and am learning about things Czech, via my language learning.
I believe in democracy. Banning political parties is really not a good idea, in my view. In Russia they have Zhirinovsky and I think his support has actually peaked and declined, although there are even more nationalistic groups around. The Communists remain strong and the Liberals who got such a bad reputation from the nineties are making a slight comeback mostly in Moscow, although it will no doubt be new political currents that carry the day. All this in an imperfect democracy where one party has more control over the process than the others, but where there is freedom of expression.
I think that freedom of expression is alive and well in Greece and we will see what happens. As I said, I wish I were studying Greek.
ad odiernod: (…) One has to be careful to know that they are well informed about a situation before they start throwing their judgements all over the place. (…)
Honestly, you make it sound as if you needed to be a rocket scientist to clearly say that people inciting others to kill Jews, Blacks, homosexuals, anybody who does not agree with them, are a bunch of criminals. Nobody was trying to blame “the Greek as a whole” for what those nazis say.
One may argue about the motives of people who voted for that party and we all would certainly have to get deeper into the current social and political situation in Greece to find more or less satisfying answers to that question but there is no way you or anybody else is going to convince me that condemning national socialism as evil is tantamount to “throwing your judgments all over the place”.
(…) You see reserving judgement as an excuse not to care, I see it as the wisdom not to take an extremely opinionated stance about something that you know next to nothing about. (…)
Well, if a person knows next to nothing about national socialism (and that’s what I was talking about and not about the economic situation in Greece etc.) then reserving judgment might actually be the way to go. I for my part have had ample opportunity to deal with the topic and my family history has taught me some painful lessons too. No need for any reservations here.
(…) I also say this as an American who is tired of being judged by other cultures, especially Europeans, for my lifestyle; often having to deal with ridiculously ignorant opinions about gun control or the political beliefs of libertarians. The world is not as simple as taking ones’ individual moral beliefs and applying them to other societies to create judgements. (…)
You complain about “ridiculously ignorant opinions about gun control” and the “political beliefs of libertarians” while in the next sentence you argue that the world is not as simple as taking one’s individual moral beliefs and applying them to other societies to create judgments. Do you realize that this is just what you did yourself when ridiculing the political beliefs of “libertarians” as you call them? You took your stance on gun control for example and called that of others “ridiculously ignorant opinions”. How objective is that without providing any further arguments as to what makes those opinions so ignorant? So, you don’t feel the need to be reserved about gun control but when it comes to nazi propaganda you seem to think one has to get a degree first to be able to talk about it.
(…) Having beliefs and opinions about other places and cultures is of course important, but only if they are well informed. (…)
I totally agree with you on that. But the issue here is not different customs, lifestyles etc. - we are talking about national socialism here. I mean the party calls itself “nationalist socialist” for crying out loud!
And as for your being tired of being judged by other cultures, especially Europeans, it is always unpleasant if people generalize and don’t make an effort to get to know you as an individual.
But with all due respect, what do you think America is doing when it forces its own legislation upon the rest of the world (like FATCA)? When it tells people they are not allowed to do business with Cuban companies because they are “evil” communists (not so much “freedom of speech” left there, I guess), when American politicians call for “french fries” to be renamed into “freedom fries” because the French dared to say that the invasion of Iraq was not a good idea? Do you really think Europeans always feel they are treated fairly by the US?
You will find countless examples of Europeans generalizing about Americans and the other way round. However, I don’t really think you fare worse in this respect than many other countries do.
I, for my part, always try to judge the individual. If we were to meet in person I’d first and foremost be interested in what you say and do and not your nationality.
(…) “to suggest that we should only care about things happening in our own countries sounds quite strange to me.” This is a strawman argument, nobody, including steve, said this. (…)
I don’t see how this is a strawman argument. I consider it a logical conclusion of what Steve said. You are free to disagree and tell me I am wrong or misinterpreted Steve, but I still think it was a valid argument.
I had some heated discussions with Steve, JayB and others on “freedom of speech” and national socialism before (when I still had my first account here). Our different cultural background certainly has an impact on the beliefs we hold as well but at the end of the day it all comes down to what we decide to do and say as individuals.
There is a lot I cherish about other countries and cultures, including the US of course, and there are things I don’t like. I try to base my “judgments” on as much information as I can get but the way I or you process the information available to us will always be affected by our own personal beliefs and one of my beliefs is that national socialism is not to be taken lightly or seen as just another “way of life”. It is not really an ideology either, it is a crime. If you consider this an uninformed opinion, well, we’ll simply have to agree on disagreeing and I’m fine with that.
ad steve: (…) I think that freedom of expression is alive and well in Greece and we will see what happens. As I said, I wish I were studying Greek. (…)
I am sure you can get lots of valid information about the situation in Greece without actually speaking the language. Knowing the language always is a major advantage, no doubt about that, but it is not the only way to learn more about what is going on in other places. After all you were quoting some Wikipedia articles in English when we were talking about the university system in Austria and you did “judge” the situation based on that information. Nothing wrong with that, mind you. There is no reason whatsoever for you not to have an opinion about our university system or similar topics. Actually, I’m glad if people make an effort to understand others as you put it above (“… I prefer to try to understand …”)
(…) Since I cannot influence events in other countries, I prefer to try to understand (…)
And if you try to understand, I guess at the end of your thinking process you will have formed your own opinion even withouth having lived in those places.
I know that we have different points of view when it comes to “freedom of speech” and that is just fine. We don’t have to agree on everything as long as we manage to treat each other respectfully.
Robert I did not say that we should not judge events in Greece, just that it is difficult to judge.
I did not judge the university system in Austria but just quoted a source that confirmed, that as in most countries, it is mostly the middle and upper classes who go to university, and that free university does not necessarily lead to greater university attendance by students from lower income families. Often countries with higher university fees, also provide more support in the form of free tuition and living costs for poorer students. That is not judgement just statements of facts as near as I can tell.
@ lovelanguagesII
Hate to break this to you, but your post directed at me is basically a pile of misinterpretations and logical fallacies.
“One has to be careful to know that they are well informed about a situation before they start throwing their judgements all over the place.” ← This is a general statement, and a rather respectable one if I do say so myself. I was not directing this statement specifically at the Greek Nazis but at life in general, as a response to your comments about how we should of course judge other cultures, which was also a general statement I would imagine. Therefore taking my statement, pointing it at Greek Nazis, and acting as though I am a Nazi sympathizer doesn’t make any sense.
The section where I start with “As an American”, you completely misread. Gun control or the political beliefs of Libertarians are completely separate topics, two different examples of where I hear ignorant opinions from Europeans being spouted. I also do not get where you believe I am ridiculing Libertarians. I am one. You completely misread my statement and then wrote a giant paragraph accusing me of being hypocritical based on your misinterpretation. Please reread. As a side note, gun control is an issue where I constantly have to defend my position from people who have never even seen a firearm in real life, let alone handle or use one. Their entire concept of firearms comes from what they see in the movies. I am definitely more qualified than they are to have an opinion about gun control.
I’m glad that when you feel the need to judge that you strive to “judge the individual” rather than making broad generalizations, lets hope that for the most part you make more well thought out judgements of others than you did of me.
it is a curious thing, the death of a loved one. we all know that our time in this world is limited, and that eventually all of us will end up underneath some sheet, never to wake up. and yet it is always a surprise when it happens to someone we know. it is like walking up the stairs to your bedroom in the dark, and thinking there is one more stair than there is. your foot falls down, through the air, and there is a sickly moment of dark surprise as you try and readjust the way you thought of things
Lemony Snicket, Horseradish: Bitter Truths You Can’t Avoid
@Robert: “…I had some heated discussions with Steve, JayB and others on “freedom of speech” and national socialism before (when I still had my first account here).”
That’s true - and I think we disagee on this. But actually I don’t see the Greek election result in any sense as a freedom of speech issue. I support everyone’s right to freedom of speech provided (importantly) that the person in question is not inciting violent disorder or any criminal act.
My understanding is that these Greek Nazis are openly saying (among many other things) that they want violent and lethal means to be used against foreigners who illegally enter Greece. For me this crosses a red line. We are not merely talking about a rounding up people and repatriating them from Greece to their home country (I’m not necessarily saying I would support that either BTW) but rather we are talking about deliberate liquidation of human beings!
In my opinion, the 1 in 15 Greeks who voted for a party which basically wants to murder illegal immigrants are (at best) complete fools.
In the Balkans in the 1990s the world saw just how quickly things like this can turn REALLY seriously ugly…