Can you learn a language by studying the Bible translation in that language?

Open Forum in English
101

@ Ernie

That time of the month eh?

Whoa! What have I missed? Name calling–the last, desperate resort of a weak defense. Well, since you have apologized, I’ll accept your apology and let it go. What I was objecting to, as maybe you now see–and you really should consider whether you do it often in discussions–was the back-pedaling instead of just saying, as you finally did, that you were wrong.

. . . As to the question of discussing religion here. Just about always, discussion of such a topic leads to proselytizing or irrelevant (to this forum) attacks on or defenses of religion, or we are treated, for instance, to explanations of why some “cult” errs in its beliefs–as if those beliefs were any less rational than any other religious beliefs, and as if it mattered at all to a linguistic discussion.

To skip such “religious wars” was why I stopped watching this thread. But since I’m again “here,” I must figure out the context of “I assume you meant it was a parallel text, then.” Oh, and “prima facie”–good one, Prince_Jogi. It made me groan, which is the purpose of puns.

, , , Now i see the “parallel text” context. Sanne_T, a rose from me for “Chinese whispers,” your point #5. No two ways about it!

This discussion has avoided “religious wars” better than just about any online discussion I can remember.

102

@Ernie
“…Or we are treated, for instance, to explanations of why some “cult” errs in its beliefs–as if those beliefs were any less rational than any other religious beliefs…”

We haven’t been treated to anything of the kind, have we? At least not on this thread.

But I don’t agree with the point, Ernie. Doesn’t it ultimately all have to do with how people behave as a result of what they believe?

At one end of the scale you might have folks who are motivated by their faith to open a soup kitchen to help the poor in their city. At the other end of the scale you have people who knowingly cause harm others as a result of what they have been taught by some extreme or bizarre cult.

It doesn’t seem reasonable to me to say that the two positions are equally the same.

103

“It doesn’t seem reasonable to me to say that the two positions are equally the same.”

He didn´t talk about helping in soup kitchens for religious reasons and causing harm to others for religious reaons being the same thing. He said that cults and mainstream religion are equally irrational. (Correct ne if I´m wrong, Ernie)

104

PS: I don´t know how often I was told “Paule, you´re thinking too much” or “You gotta have faith”. In other words: “Be less rational and you´ll be able to believe in our religion!”.

105

Paule, my point is that it is precisely all about how people behave as a result of what they believe.

If that were not the case, then people who believe that they will go to heaven if they kill a thousand Jewish children (just for example) would be no more “irrational” (in your terms) than someone who believes he will have his reward in heaven if he helps the poor on Tuesday afternoons down at the local soup kitchen.

By their fruits shall ye know them (as somebody once said.)

106

Both beliefs are irrational because they´re based on the same amount of evidence. “Kind” and “evil” are better words to describe your example.

107

So the guy down at the soup kitchen is equally as irrational as the suicide bomber?

And you really think that, Paule?

Wow. Just wow.

108

It´s impressive how not editing out the word “equally” completely changes the meaning of what I wrote.^^

What I meant is “Both beliefs are irrational because they´re based on the same amount of evidence” (none, IMHO)

Both beliefs are irrational, it´s just that helping in a soup kitchen is kind and killing a thousand children is evil.

109

Hold on, let’s look at Ernie’s point, Paule - the one to which I was originally responding. His contention was (if I have understood him correctly?) that one set of beliefs can’t be seen as any more irrational than another.

Now, I am arguing that belief can’t meaningfully exist in a vacuum - rather it translates into acts - or “fruit” if you will. It is these acts which count in the here and now. On that basis I don’t see how all religious convictions can be “zusammen in einen Topf geworfen”, so to say.

Peace :slight_smile:

110

@ Ernie

Well I almost killed myself in Hamburg when I was younger trying to backpedal. I just borrowed somebodies bike and didn’t realise that it was one of those bikes that you can actually move backwards on when you pedal backwards. On such bikes, it is a bad idea to try to reposition the pedals while going full speed forwards. I almost flipped over the handlebars going down a hill with several cars around me!

(But seriously, I have no idea what you are talking about with all this backpedalling stuff.)

[Edit: just backpedalled on a couple of typos]

111

@SanneT

“Any beliefs are equally irrational. […] Have I missed anything?”

I think it´s rational to believe in the existence of milk. You can see it, you can taste it, you can digest it, you know where it comes from and everyone agrees that milk exists. I also believe that it´s rational to drink milk (or any other liquid) in order to…uh…not die.

Let´s compare this with Christianity: “The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.”

This makes much more sense than any of these “weird cults”, of course.

112

@Paule: Not sure if you made this up yourself, but it sure is funny! LMAO ;-))

113

@Paule

Very droll, of course - but not necessarily the most elegant (or indeed accurate) explanation of the faith which has been the foundation of Western civilisation for the last 2000 years :slight_smile:

PS

“…tell him you accept him as your master…”

Or is it the master who chooses the servant??

“…This makes much more sense than any of these “weird cults”, of course…”

Down through the years quite a few people have thought so. And generally they have been motivated to do good and advance society (ya know, help disadvantaged people, found hospitals, schools, universities, that kind of stuff) by their beliefs.

But how much good is done by people who believe in (to use your phrase) “weird cults”? And how much actual harm?

By their fruits, etc…

114

If the language you are studying is Koine Greek, Hebrew, or Latin, it would be fine.

115

I really enjoy the light-hearted banter between Paul, Jay, Colin & others (when it’s not mockery against my faith). I also want to remind people that there are several LingQ members here whom are persons of faith, and not just those belonging to my particular brand.

@Ernie - I want to respond to the innuendo that I may have used this forum to vent my intolerance of another religion. Far from it. I don’t believe it was wrong to mention that Christendom views the JW organisation as a cult, to put it into perspective in the discussion. And if one had read properly what I wrote, one would see that I’ve always been very friendly and courteous to JW individuals.I have acquaintances in the community who are JWs. We would be friends I’m sure, if it were not for the tight control that organisation has on its members. They can only truly tell me what they think/feel when they’re lucky enough not to have the usual second person with them when they knock on my door, or I catch them elsewhere alone.

I have privately grieved and wept for some that are trapped in the organisation – the price they pay for leaving is permanent shunning from their own spouses and children. What about the youth who was able to break free, sobbing and sobbing on his 16th birthday – for the first time in his life being allowed to celebrate and have a birthday cake. Some Watchtower doctrine can have literal life and death consequences, for example, their teaching against blood-transfusions. Perhaps people could have some genuine care and compassion for those in that situation, before they presume to know what my motives are.

I believed it was important to point out their “Bible” is vastly different to that accepted by mainstream Christianity (especially when I saw their slick website and umpteen references to the “Bible” on forum-supplied link), and I said I’ve pointed out their misleading and deceptive conduct on that score to them. I have since been contacted privately by some LingQ members who thanked me for speaking up, by the way.

116

@Jogi “Down through the years quite a few people have thought so. And generally they have been motivated to do good and advance society (ya know, help disadvantaged people, found hospitals, schools, universities, that kind of stuff) by their beliefs.”

Just like people who believe in other religions and atheists.

“Very droll, of course - but not necessarily the most elegant (or indeed accurate) explanation of the faith which has been the foundation of Western civilisation for the last 2000 years :-)”

Still good enough to make you play the “it´s the foundation of our civilisation”-card. This is getting boring.

117

I am not a religious person myself (anymore) and I have made that clear repeatedly on this forum. My personal record of alleged divine interference or the complete absence thereof is way too negative for me to be able to hold on to any of the promises spread by various religious groups.

Both in my private life and in my profession I have experienced so much harm caused by religions that I consider it best for my own spiritual health to simply stay away from them. This is not to say that non-religious people, organisations etc. cannot cause harm. They sure can and if I am able to identify them as a source of acts I consider to be unacceptable or “evil” in my mind, I make sure I don’t cross their path either.

I’m not on a crusade against believers.

Actually, I have quite a few religious people amongst my friends, even in my family and I am thankful for having them in my life. Despite the fact that we have a different view of life and of all the things that may or may not come afterwards, they are respectful of people who don’t share their way of thinking and that is what counts in my eyes.

I enjoy talking to open-minded, friendly people who understand that whatever our ideas may be, if we start imposing our own way of life upon others, we are terribly wrong.

Sometimes the greatest gift is the greatest source of despair. Man’s ability to reason has probably contributed to a very large extent to our survival on this planet, and yet it is this same ability that can wreak havoc on your mind if you start questioning the very reason of your existence.

For many people, religions seem to offer an answer to this burning question. The only problem I have with this is that religions are used so often as an excuse to mistreat others.

I don’t believe in a creator, saviour, “fatherly” figure or a supreme being that will take care of me and bring me “home” after my life has ended.

I believe in the exceptional power of giving and receiving love and caring for others as long as I am here on this small planet. I believe in the ability to fail and try to do better next time.

Coming back to the original question of the OP, I also enjoy reading good, entertaining or instructive stories. Except for some individual verses or phrases which I indeed consider to be beautiful (regardless of their historical or religious context), there isn’t much - if anything at all - that would have made me read the Bible in the first place, had it not been a prerequisite in school.

And as for language learning, I think there is nothing in it you can’t learn much better from other material. But again, it all comes down to what you are interested in. If you believe in these stories and if reading them makes you feel comfortable, helps you find your peace of mind and, who knows, even turns you into a “better person”, then it probably is not such a bad idea to keep reading those scriptures. Just don’t impose them on others (just for the record, nobody in this forum has done this).

P.S. People like Jay, July and others on this forum are good examples of believers who are respectful of the way others try to live their life. And I very much appreciate the fact that their contributions on this forum make me ponder on whatever opinion I may hold.

EDITED.

118

@Paule: “…Still good enough to make you play the “it´s the foundation of our civilisation”-card. This is getting boring…”

I thought the Zombie-strawman was pretty boring too :wink: In fairness, though, it is an interesting variation on the usual theme of ‘Christians-believe in magic’, etc..

@Robert: “…yet it is this same ability that can wreak havoc on your mind if you start questioning the very reason of your existence…”

That’s all too true. If I didn’t believe, it’s well and truly possible that I would have killed myself already before the age of twenty.

I certainly don’t hate atheists - i.e. people. But I do hate Atheism with all of my heart - because it is something which would destroy me.

119

ad Jay: (…) That’s all too true. If I didn’t believe, it’s well and truly possible that I would have killed myself already before the age of twenty.

I certainly don’t hate atheists - i.e. people. But I do hate Atheism with all of my heart - because it is something which would destroy me. (…)

I love my life and I am grateful for so many things, even more so for the people in my life (especially my family). There are times, however, when I do ask myself if it is really worth it. No matter whether you are happy, sad, rich, healthy, sick, powerful, weak, the oppressed or the oppressor, at one point of time it is all over - you are gone and if you did not manage to leave an impression on some people you met during your life, you’ll be gone for ever, erased from this earth and from the minds of people.

This can be a frightening thought if you think that there ought to be some “purpose” behind your existence, a “plan” or some sort of providence. Something that gives your life a meaning.

I guess that is why many people believe in a supreme being and reading your post, I have a feeling this is also why you believe in God. I may be wrong and I am certainly not judging you, but that’s the impression I got from what I read.

Even when I believed in God I still had to convince myself that he knows best what is good for me and thus I wouldn’t have to reflect upon the reasons why I was born etc. After all, it was all part of his divine master plan.

The thing is that as time went by I felt that this plan was full of flaws and probably just as much an illusion as the quest for the supposedly true meaning of life itself.

The crux of the matter, as I see it, is that we first proceed from the assumption that our life has to have a meaning and then we try to find reasons why this must be so.

Religious people may argue that our life has a meaning because, after all, we were created by a supreme being and he/she/it must know what this is all good for.

And if people run out of explanations, they resort to the “inexplicable ways” of their God. I’m not saying this to disparage anybody’s beliefs, this is simply the impression I have got from many discussions and it is something that is also very much based on my personal experience.

I have a family member who is terminally ill and while I enjoy every moment I can spend with her, I fear the time she will be gone. I don’t believe in God, but I’m actually grateful she does because it gives her great comfort. When she doubts, I try to encourage her to listen to her “heart” and not to what I might say or think. She knows I don’t believe in the “Holy Father”.

Whatever the reason for our existence may be, wherever we come from and wherever we may go to, there is one thing that helps me through times of despair and that is the love you feel for others. As hackneyed as this may sound, but look in the eyes of a person that is just happy to see you, feel the warmth of the hug of a child that has waited for you to come by and you’ll have every reason to be glad you are alive.

That’s also why I believe in the importance of living in the present.

There are so many good reasons to enjoy life. The best probably being that it is the only one we have. As I see it, there won’t be any “refills” and no “second rounds”. You’d better get it right the first time.

Not everybody is given the kind of choice we have in industrialized countries. Many human beings who are just as “worthy” of living a good life as we are, lead a miserable life for reasons beyond their control.

One more reason for me not to believe in any divine plan. And one more reason to believe in the importance of assuming responsibility for others.

Well, I’ll go to bed now before this completely turns into a sermon :wink:

120

“That’s all too true. If I didn’t believe, it’s well and truly possible that I would have killed myself already before the age of twenty.”

I’ve never really understood the “atheists have no reason to live” sort of belief. As far as I see it, we have LESS reason to kill ourselves, because this life right here is all we get. If we kill ourselves, that’s it. We get nothing. But believers have the promise of a (presumably pleasant) afterlife… under this premise, maybe it would even be a good thing for a believer to die, because they would end up in a better place than they are here. (I’m not saying I think believers should kill themselves. I don’t think believers should kill themselves. Please don’t kill yourselves.) I guess it’s a good thing suicide is considered a sin…
I guess you were getting at the “meaning of life” thing, which Robert already touched on. I think you have to give your life its meaning yourself. I don’t believe that there’s any sort of ‘divine plan’ for my life and I’m totally comfortable with that. All I want to do is be happy, do good, do the things I love and be with the people I love. I also think that everyone, regardless of their beliefs, has at least something in their life worth living for.

“I certainly don’t hate atheists - i.e. people. But I do hate Atheism with all of my heart - because it is something which would destroy me.”

That’s pretty much exactly how I feel about most religions :wink:
Well, my hatred of religion comes more from the violence it’s caused, the intolerance it’s spread and the ideas of sin and shame it’s introduced than the thought that it would destroy me, but I do think I’ll live a much happier life as an atheist.
I guess you’ll live a happier life as a Christian, though. It all comes down to the individual.^^

@Robert
I completely agree with almost everything you’ve said!