Yep, I feel like only those who get that far truly understand why ‘fluency’ isn’t the goal that will carry you through the tough times. Living the language and having fun doing is the key to it all.
Sounds good. Even though I haven’t done that, it’ll keep you on track to do what’s necessary.
That said, for me at least, I’d say choosing TL content over NL content, because you’d prefer to, is the real goal. If you can manage that, or at least find something with enough content to keep you occupied, everything else will fall into place, you’ll just do it because it’s more fun.
For instance, over the last 6 months or so I’ve been bingeing (I’m over 50 movies now) all the animated films I never got around to watching in my NL, and now I genuinely prefer to watch new releases in my TL. If you can make those kinds of discoveries, you’re golden. I’m enjoying it so much that I’m planning to go back to rewatch those I’ve already seen in my NL, something I rarely do in my NL.
Agreed. That’s my experience. Athough I’ve very rarely set aside blocks of time and logged it, every single time I do anything like that I just end up abandoning it because of the pressure it brings to the process.
Absolutely, managing to get yourself hooked with content, whatever it might be, is soooooooo important. I’d also agree with the beginning stages being slightly different in terms of mindset - the quicker we reach the ‘Netflix’ stage the better.
Yes, which makes enjoying the process even more crucial than with “easier” langauges. I’m imaging that I’d have to absolutely love the content I’m consuming to progress with a trickier language. That might be where a deep-rooted fascination with the culture comes into play.
Haha, right? Throw in some background noise, or just one other person interjecting/talking in the background and we’re done for! That’s what those extra 10s of thousands of hours are for, I guess.
Yes, I agree it’s “scary” - at least from a language learner’s point of view because everything that involves more than a few thousand (say, 2000) hours is a “huge” hill to climb.
But I think we can level the playing field by:
- being strategic, e.g., focusing on the oral dimension and maybe neglect the writing or cultural dimensions. In contrast, being “native-like” in
- speaking (based on various levels of formality / informality, etc. and various sociolects / dialects),
- listening
- reading
- writing
- the intercultural aspects (levels of politeness / directness, etc.)
is a tough nut to crack. And the vast majority of language learners never achieves such a level of competence in all five SLA dimensions.
- focusing on “partial fluency” in certain areas that learners are interested in.
For example, if your strong point is programming in your L1, it’s usually much easier to achieve a similar level in your L2.
In other words, fluency doesn’t automatically mean that people know what they’re talking about, and when they don’t (as native speakers), they use a kind of “wisdom” of the crowds approach, i.e. stereotypes, clichés, platitudes, etc.
“like all we have to do is think about achieving goals”
No, that’s a misunderstanding.
You set your overall goals (say, 2.5 million words read in an L2 and 500 h listening - and then you double these numbers …)
- and you forget about them (“put them in the drawer”).
Then you do your Pomodoro blocks (with a timer) - and that’s it: rinse and repeat.
Nowadays, I even tend to skip the timer part because I know intuitively how much time I can spend on an L2.
Usually, the focus is just on what I’m “interested” in. That works extremely well in my main L2s (English, French, Spanish, and Portuguese), but it doesn’t work in Japanese because here I’ve got to do what I’ve got to do: the basics, which are neither fun nor interesting.
“everything else will fall into place, you’ll just do it because it’s more fun.”
Definitely. That’s when the content you digest isn’t simply “comprehensible”, but “compelling”.
However, that’s almost impossible at the beginner stages (A1-B1). Therefore, establishing a good study routine (“habits”) is key for success.
Otherwise, it’s way too easy to give up, esp. when learners rely on volatile states of the mind (motivational bursts, feeling like it, etc.). But we’ve discussed this topic so often in this forum that I’ll just skip it here…
BTW, which kind of content do you “love”?
“It’s hard to unerstand if you’re emotionally intact or just strong naturally,”
Well, I’m not a “natural born fighter”. My mum died when I was still young, and my dad died a few weeks ago. Trust me: I’m well acquainted with mental and physical pain.
However, pain can neither define nor break me.That’s the hard lesson I learned when life kicked me in the teeth…
But of course, the story can be completely different when people suffer from “traumas” (especially in childhood). These vulnerabilities may never go away completely, and someone probably needs the help of specialists (psychologists, etc.) to learn how to deal with them. I’m not one of those specialists…
“Slow pacing has been working more reliable so far.”
No problem.
In the end, you’ve got to find a “viable” solution that works for you.
It doesn’t matter what others are telling you if you can’t incorporate it into your personal life.
By the way, I usually don’t care about “pace”.
I just follow my morning routine (working out / running, taking a cold shower, SLA) daily. And the rest will take care of itself…
100000 h is “not” an exaggeration:
just take 365 days * 12 hours (as a little child / baby you’ve less waking hours and as a teenager you have more) * 22 years = 96360 hours.
We are talking of our L1s here (and that involves a lot of interactions with our caretakers, peers, teachers / professors at university, etc. - and a lot of media consumption: "Teens are using various screens nearly 7 and a half hours a day. If you think that number sounds crazy, consider this: the 7 hours and 22 minutes of average daily screen time teens reported in the study does not include time spent on screens for school or homework. Teen Media Consumption Trends in 2019 - Civilian).
Just take our new baby girl (she’s 4.5 months) at the moment:
When I visited my family last Sunday for ca. 8 h, there was non-stop talking around her (in Spanish and German): playing with her, talking to her, doing funny things to make her laugh, her mum doing Colombian dance moves while the little one was trying to imitate her (in a still uncoordinated way). etc.
In German you would say: “Es war Dauerbespaßung” (a non stop entertainment program)…
But, of course, 100k hours “give or take” 
I guess it could be called, from my perspective, just another style of walking down this road. You like to do it in the mornings, slightly faster than it’s for me and more condensed in terms of time. I prefer not to think of time framing or particular milage, just focus on enjoying the process and the rest will take care of itself.
I’m sorry for your loss.
Mate,
Normally what you write is spot on but in this case you are not…
The Quote was :
Ha. 100,000 hours is probably an exaggeration but not by an order of magnitude.
Quote is deadset Correct:
30-50k hours, fully immersed, will always = fluent, for all practical purposes.
Not correct , for all practical purposes: 100k… and the point – regardless – this difference isnt an order of magnitude…
Arguing the incorrect toss on “not by an order of magnitude” really got my goat. Not sure why
Peter is German. He likes to argue/be right.
I like to poke the bear.
;->
Yeah if you use 22 years and 12 hours a day for sure you get to 100,000.
That said, the more interesting question isn’t quibbling over 70,000 or 100,00.
The more interesting question is: what is the minimum exposure that will give the same lift for an adult who already has an L1?
I’ve always thought of the “year in jail” measure as being accurate.
Go to Beijing/Mecca/Moscow and punch a cop and say “[insert X name] dictator likes to eat honey/has short man syndrome/kisses goats”.
If you don’t get executed, a year in jail will make you fluent guaranteed.
Also: congratulations on the little one, my brother. Hope she is well and that you are getting sleep.
Agreed. I’ve been pondering a thing related to this. I wonder if evolution has given us a minimum bar that we need as daily exposure. Maybe our brains only have it stick if as tribesfolk we run across the other tribe “just enough” for our hind-brains to conclude “better retain that language because it’s got survival usefulness”. If my hypothesis is correct I wonder what the level is and if it’s possible to determine accurately what it might be.
Maybe “on average, how often do two unrelated hunter gatherer tribes spend in each other’s company in a year” would be something like the google question to ask.
Agreed. All those things and being stubborn.
I think the steak with steve thing is genius. It’s easy to burst up the intensity when you know there is an end date to it. That really helped with my French. Because I knew I was only going to do it for six months I could grind it out because I knew I was getting a rest at the end.
With Russian the mindset is different. I’ve still broken it into six month “sprints” but I am hoping I’m across the finish line at two years.
Holy crap I can’t believe I’ve been doing this for 20 months already LOL.
Yep. Also, I’m learning the languages of the countries I live in. So there are ample opportunities for little wins along the way. And always more advanced steps beyond the reach but not too far as to seem impossible. Especially when you meet other foreigners who have reached it, without seeming like superheroes 