Bill Clinton's speech to the Democratic convention

ad eugrus (…) All throughout history the ban on weapons was either I sign of a totalitarian state (…)

In Austria, at least, there is no ban on weapons. I could get myself a weapon but I would not be allowed to buy fully-automatic machine guns with which I could shoot hundreds of bullets within a couple of minutes. And I would not be allowed to buy grenades etc.

There are clear regulations as to what kind of weapons you are allowed to buy. As opposed to Germany, for example, anybody who is at least 18 years old can buy a flobert rim-fire gun. You can also buy other guns (like pistols etc.) if you have a clean police record, no psychological issues (they are not handing out a gun to you if you spent years in a psychiatric ward) but you will have to undergo a test. Besides, you will not be allowed to run around in the streets and openly carry your gun. You may have them at home (with your ammunition and you are required to safely store them) or at your business (if you can prove you need the gun for your protection but for that you need a special permit).

So, the question is not so much about banning weapons altogether but about how easy you can get your hands on weapons only trained professionals should have (like policemen, soldiers). In some countries it is easier to buy a machine gun than a pair of glasses (you’ll have to wait longer to get your glasses than you may have to wait to go home with your gun) and that, to me, is not a good policy.

The statistics you quoted are interesting. Of course, one would need much more detailed information to understand the reason for this obvious decrease in murder rates (if it actually happened). One possible reason might be that most crime is gang-related and that gangs are now less inclined to get involved in a full-scale shooting scenario. I don’t know if you could apply that 1:1 to a situation where you have little to none gang-related violence.

Maybe I would want to be armed as well if we had crime rates you see in other countries. But I think it is always better to fight the root cause. Once you have failed to do so and are confronted with an almost uncontrollable situation (with gang lords being the ones “ruling” a country) your options may be limited though. I’m just glad I don’t have to live in a country where I feel the need to arm myself to live a reasonably peaceful life. I guess I’m just a very lucky person.

@Peter: “…Terrible for society”

In Australia people actually ARE allowed to own and carry some guns - am I right? And Australia is a fine country, IMO.

I think Robert makes some very good points - the issue of gun-ownership has to be contextualised (if that is the right word) according to other factors within a given society (such as the number of people who are routinely drunk or drugged up, the level of gang-crime, etc, etc.)

It may well be the case that there are some societies (in North America and elsewhere) where there is indeed a simple equation: more guns = more gun crime.

But this is not inevitable - as we can see from the example of countries like Switzerland.

Of course, I appreciate that there is a difference (and an important one) between keeping a weapon at home, and routinely carrying a weapon. I posed the rhetorical question which you quoted above, but my own actual view is that people should be allowed to keep weapons at home - yet they should have to be transported in locked metal cases.


@Marianne: “…the Daily Mail […] that paper is just the most narrow-minded, conservative with a small c, self-righteous paper in the UK. Its readers are outraged who want to read outraged views”

You shouldn’t believe everything the BBC or the Guardian tells you, Marianne! :smiley:

The Daily Telegraph is the British paper for intellectual rightwingers. However I still find it amusing to see the foaming outrage towards the Daily Mail on the part of leftist/pro-Labour organisations such as the BBC and The Guardian. What really gets their goat is that the Mail has very high circulation figures, and makes a healthy profit - even though it is run entirely commercially.

(Of course, neither the BBC nor The Guardian could exist in their present form if they were run on a proper commercial basis. The BBC leeches tax in the form of an obligitory licence fee, while the Guardian’s huge yearly shortfall is topped up by a trust fund.)

Now if I were in Downing Street (gadzooks! :-D) the BBC would have been privatised and sold to Rupert Murdoch a LONG time ago. Oh yes!

Imyirtseshem’s probably right. I don’t have the figures, but I don’t think legal gun ownership is at all common in Australia (at least not in urban areas), nor would I want it to be.

JayB - For all you know I might be working for the BBC :slight_smile:

Marianne…you’re working for the ENEMY…?!

Words fail me…! :smiley:

Ah, the gun control debate. Just out of curiosity, why is it always limited to weapons which fire bullets? You never hear people arguing about grenades and bazookas and whatnot. At least in the American context, isn’t one of the arguments that people need to be able to arm themselves to fight the government? If that’s the case, wouldn’t grenades and bazookas come in handy? If the argument against selling grenades and bazookas commercially is that they’re too dangerous and unnecessary for home defense, couldn’t the same argument be applied to military assault rifles?

While criminals may always be able to get guns, there are variables like which sorts of guns they can get, how much effort and money it takes to get a gun, and what are the consequences for having or using an illegal gun. And policy can affect these variables.

In countries like Canada and the US, lots of people still like hunting, so hunting weapons aren’t going to get banned. And there are lots of genuinely dangerous areas in the US, so I can see the argument in favour of having a handgun of some kind for personal defense . But having Uzis and M16s floating around just seems crazy.

@Bortrun: “…You never hear people arguing about grenades and bazookas”

Friedemann is on the record (on this very thread) as saying that old ladies shouldn’t be allowed to own a bazooka…

(He’s right - they can do plenty enough lethal damage with an automobile!)

I’m pretty confident that democide is the leading cause of all unnatural human death throughout all of recorded history. So maybe the discussion should be how to disarm governments that go around “legally murdering” people (within the framework of their corrupt laws) instead of targeting honest, hardworking civilians who just want to live life and enjoy their freedom. All of the shooter statistics conveniently leave out government oppression, which is a pity considering you’re many times more likely to be killed by government than by a loony gunman.

unravelingmind.

There are 15,000 murders a year in the US (550 in Canada). I was not aware that a much larger number of innocent US civilians were killed by the government every year. Do you have more details on this?

True, you are in far more danger from your own government then any criminal gang or gannies with bazookas. Every person should not have to worry about being attacked and killed for simply owning a gun.

What a contradiction. “I believe people should not own guns but I believe that people who do own guns should be shot with guns.” Magical thinking!

20th Century deomocide at 76,702,000. 20th Century Democide

" I was not aware that a much larger number of innocent US civilians were killed by the government every year."

I didn’t say that and if my wording implied that, my apologies. I don’t make a distinction between a US citizen and other victims of the US gov’t and other governments of the world. Human is human to me, regardless of nationality.

Noted.

You’re right Imyirtseshem: even the Romans understood that “the pen is mightier than the sword”, did they not?

(Or as Friedemann would perhaps say: “der Kugelschreiber meiner Großmutter ist mächtiger als ihr Panzerschreck!” :-D)

@Imyirtseshem The same thing with Chinese and Mongols.

How did a thread on gun control get through 4 pages without me noticing? I must be focusing too much on work lately.

The problem is that while looking at crime vs guns per capita correlation, looking at the national level is too coarse of a grain to really get any useful information out of it. At that grain, as far as the US is concerned it certainly looks like more guns = more crime. However when you take a closer look, you will see that the vast majority of the guns in America are owned in rural areas, where the crime rate is practically nill. The most violent crime areas of the country are where there are relatively few guns per capita. So at a closer grain, the exact opposite seems true: more guns = less crime.
Robert had a point where he mentioned that one has too fix the root cause if one really wants to limit crime rates. The root cause for much of America’s crime is its gang culture. As some have already noted, making laws to limit guns will not reduce crime since laws are only followed by law abiders. Even if limiting guns actually worked to reduce gun crime, it would be at best a ill-fitting band-aid over the problem, as gang members are more than happy to stab and bludgeon people to death in the absence of a gun.

If the violent gang culture were not so prevalent in the US, the gun control issue would be cared about a lot less.

Back to the main thread. Nixon performed some extremely good speeches during his presidency as well (of course, Ben Stein was on of his speech writers). I thoroughly enjoyed listening to his “Checkers” speech.

ad Odiernod: (…) Robert had a point where he mentioned that one has too fix the root cause if one really wants to limit crime rates. The root cause for much of America’s crime is its gang culture. As some have already noted, making laws to limit guns will not reduce crime since laws are only followed by law abiders. Even if limiting guns actually worked to reduce gun crime, it would be at best a ill-fitting band-aid over the problem, as gang members are more than happy to stab and bludgeon people to death in the absence of a gun. (…)

I, too, believe that gang related crime is the major problem. Just look at the horrific crime rates in Central America where drug lords practically rule and destroy the countries as they please. The question is how to avoid a situation where these people get so much power they can do whatever they want. I am convinced that most people want to live in peace. The breeding ground for a lot of violence seems to be the terrible social conditions people have to live in. This is by no means to say that there is any justification whatsoever for attacking or even killing another person (unless you do so in self-defense). Many poor people would never even think of stealing and robbing. It is not so much the lack of money either but the lack of social cohesion that creates most problems. If your parents are not around or if they abuse you, if there are no role models to follow, if you are constantly discriminated against (on whatever basis), if there are no jobs available or in case they are available you are not given any access to the job market (because of your religion, your skin colour, your sex, etc.) and if in all this misery all of a sudden a group of people comes around offering you all the “goodies in life” such as money, recognition by your peers, “friends” and if the society at large fails to offer you any of these perspectives, chances are that quite a large number of people at risk won’t be able to resist the temptation and start a criminal career.

Of course, people should not just sit back and wait for the government to simply dish out services to them. Everybody needs to understand that they have to do their part as well. If I want a job I must be ready to work for it BUT I also need to be given the opportunity to do so. It does not make any sense to require people to get professional training if there are no schools or no teachers.

We have experienced a major increase in drug-related crime in Austria as well. I do believe that we’d have more serious incidents if we had more liberal gun control laws now. If a junky tries to stab you because he wants your money you still have better chances to get away than if he had a machine gun.

But, as I said previously, I’m not entirely against allowing people to own a gun. This may come as a surprise to some people but I actually enjoyed shooting my gun while I did my military service. Not because I enjoy thinking of killing people but because I liked the competition at the shooting range and I was quite good at it as a matter of fact :wink:

And, yes, I certainly would defend myself and people whose safety I have to ensure (such as family members and people in need of help because they can’t help themselves) by the use of force, if necessary also by using a gun. Fortunately, in Austria (at least so far) there is no need for civilians to get armed (not systematically) in order to ensure their safety. Our law enforcement forces seem to handle the situation quite well and I prefer it this way. I am very happy that I don’t feel the need to own a gun but I certainly would get myself one if I felt that this is the only way to protect myself and/or those whose safety I have to ensure.

By the way, while in the Army and having access to live ammunition and a series of different arms, I never even thought a second about using a gun to kill people (except for war scenarios and since I was still a reservist at the time the war in former Yugoslavia broke out we actually were asked to stand by since I only live about 10 km away from the border. Luckily, things did not get out of control although we had some tank units stationed along our borders then). So, having access to a gun does not turn you into a criminal but it may be a good idea to make sure people don’t walk around armed to their teeth.

I really enjoy living in a society where private ownership of guns is very limited.

We, as a society, ought to finally understand that violence can and should only be the last resort if you need to defend yourself. But instead we keep creating an environment for our kids where violence is portrayed as cool. You can easily get a computer game for your kids where they can “learn” how to cut off heads, shoot hundreds of people to get to the next “level” with lots of blood all over the place. Try to make a naked picture of the same kid and send it to your parents and they’ll bust you for proliferation of child porn (there actually were a few incidents like these reported in the media). I know this is an extreme example but it shows that most of our societies in many ways are still stuck in a rather archaic mindset.

Luckily, there are also many communities out there that work fine and I think that when taking a closer look at how they work it almost always comes down to providing social cohesion. People assuming responsibility and taking care of each other and the services and facilities they share. Once this sense of responsiblity gets lost, you have opened the door for some rather nasty “visitors” (such as drug abuse, crime etc.). If people think its funny to randomly destroy community facilities and if they don’t have to fear any punishment, if they can get away with whatever damage they cause to society, quite a few of them will.

Odiernod: “However when you take a closer look, you will see that the vast majority of the guns in America are owned in rural areas, where the crime rate is practically nill.”

Do you have a reference for that statement of yours?

@Imyirtseshem: “…I’ve always thought that the US would benefit from heavier limitations on which weapons civilians are allowed to possess. There are already limits but it’s amazing how some people are better armed than soldiers in a war-zone!”

Soldiers in a warzone have anti-tank missiles, thermite grenades, rocket propelled grenades, super high velocity sniper rifles, heavy machine guns, etc. They can call in support from artillery or helicopter gunships…

To say that some private citizens in the US are better armed than this is surely pure fantasy?


@Robert: “…This may come as a surprise to some people but I actually enjoyed shooting my gun while I did my military service.”

I just learned something new today: I had always thought that Austria didn’t have a compulsory Militärdienst.


@Robert: “…We, as a society, ought to finally understand that violence can and should only be the last resort if you need to defend yourself […] By the way, while in the Army and having access to live ammunition and a series of different arms, I never even thought a second about using a gun to kill people”

I wholeheartedly agree. I think people should have a right to keep a handgun at home here in the UK - but I personally would never even think even of pointing any firearm at a human being unless it were in reaction to a very serious threat.

Actually people are still allowed to keep a hunting rifle or a shotgun (albeit not a pump-action one) at home here in the UK. The shotgun would take out a violent or armed intruder pretty much as well as a revolver or pistol - certainly at close range.

@Friedemann Sure thing: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/rcrp.pdf

The “Availability of guns” section addresses exactly what we are talking about here:

“It has been observed that gun ownership is much more prevalent in rural areas where more than double the number of residents owned guns than their urban counterparts. While many of the rural gun owners are hunters who use rifles or shotguns, the percentage of citizens owning handguns has also been higher in rural areas than in central cities (23 percent versus 15 percent). It is sometimes assumed that the availability of guns is relevant to gun-related violence, but the case of rural areas shows that the relationship is far more complex. While rural residents are more likely to own guns, it appears they are less likely to use guns in the commission of crimes. It has also been found that crime was lowest in counties with the highest rates of legal firearm ownership.”

Some other excerpts from the source:

“Index offense rates, including homicide, are higher for urban areas than for rural areas.”

“The gap between rural and urban crime is greater for violent crime than for property crime.”

“High rates of poverty have long been associated with high rates of crime. Crime has been less frequent in rural areas, although poverty has been a common problem in rural America.”

“Rural law enforcement officers, more than their urban counterparts, often work with lower budgets, less staff, less equipment, and fewer written policies to govern their operations. Despite these problems, rural police appear to be more efficient than urban police and more respected by the public.”

Also Friedemann, I read about your personal experience in rural US and I am sorry it was a negative one for you, as I know understand how strong personal experiences can be in forming opinion; but rest assured that experience is not the norm for rural America, as statistics show. Also, we don’t know for sure whether or not that home owner would have shot you or not for trespassing or whether he would have given you directions and offered you a coffee; all we have is the assumption of your colleague to go off of.